Slitherine

In additioin to my Mid-Republican Roman and Later Carthaginian armies that I listed in the post "Mid-Republican Roman - Italian Allies Question"; I will be buying a Pyrrhic army for Christmas. I have it listed below and like the others it is a 20mm army at 1200pts (I collect armies in the 1992-1208 pt range). The FOG lists Tarantine Phalangites as poor troops, the reading that I have done on this says that the Tarantines were very reluctant troops and had to be basically conscripted so the Poor rating makes since. I have read that Pikemen Poor battle groups can still be very effective so I have included them in my list. The hitorical research though (that I have found) does not describe them as pikemen though, but has Hoplites; so one of my questions is, should I use Italiot models to represent the Hoplites as well as the Tarantine Pikemen? Additionally, I will have 4 Battle Groups (6 bases each) of Samnites. What is a correct uniform color scheme for these troops as well as the Tarantines? How best to use this army on the table top battlefield? Here is my Army List:

Pyrrhic

Xystophoroi 1BG of 6 bases
Javelin Armed Heavy Cavalry 1BG of 6 bases
Light Cavalry (Italiot) 1BG of 6 bases
Pyrrhic Phalangites 3BG of 12 bases each
Tarantine Phalangites 2BG of 12 bases each
Hoplites (Italiot) 4BG 6 bases each
Samnites 4 BG of 6 bases each
Slingers 1BG of 8 bases
Archers 1BG of 8 bases
Javelinmen 1BG of 6 bases

CharlesRobinson wrote:In additioin to my Mid-Republican Roman and Later Carthaginian armies that I listed in the post "Mid-Republican Roman - Italian Allies Question"; I will be buying a Pyrrhic army for Christmas. I have it listed below and like the others it is a 20mm army at 1200pts (I collect armies in the 1992-1208 pt range). The FOG lists Tarantine Phalangites as poor troops, the reading that I have done on this says that the Tarantines were very reluctant troops and had to be basically conscripted so the Poor rating makes since. I have read that Pikemen Poor battle groups can still be very effective so I have included them in my list. The hitorical research though (that I have found) does not describe them as pikemen though, but has Hoplites; so one of my questions is, should I use Italiot models to represent the Hoplites as well as the Tarantine Pikemen? Additionally, I will have 4 Battle Groups (6 bases each) of Samnites. What is a correct uniform color scheme for these troops as well as the Tarantines? How best to use this army on the table top battlefield? Here is my Army List:

Pyrrhic

Xystophoroi 1BG of 6 bases
Javelin Armed Heavy Cavalry 1BG of 6 bases
Light Cavalry (Italiot) 1BG of 6 bases
Pyrrhic Phalangites 3BG of 12 bases each
Tarantine Phalangites 2BG of 12 bases each
Hoplites (Italiot) 4BG 6 bases each
Samnites 4 BG of 6 bases each
Slingers 1BG of 8 bases
Archers 1BG of 8 bases
Javelinmen 1BG of 6 bases

Well, Charles -

My first comment is that this army is -huge-. Most FOG games in 15mm are played at 800 points, with 1000 being the very most that the majority of players feel is reasonable for a realistic game; in 25mm those numbers drop to 650-800 respectively. I've been told that the game really doesn't work well beyond those maximums, by some serious devotees of the game. Keep in mind that (most) FOG armies are, in general, larger than those you'd see in DBM, Impetus, etc.

Working within the numbers you gave however, seeing that you have the points, there isn't anything that is particularly glaring to me. There seems to be a (friendly) debate about whether Pikes are most useful in blocks of 8 or 12. Certainly with more points I guess 12 is more doable, certainly less likely to be broken or lose those critical ranks. In smaller armies, although I've seen Richard advocate the use of blocks of 12 in certain situations, 8 seems to be the preferred number, for flexibility purposes.

I don't see any officers in this list. What were you thinking about in terms of IC/FC/TC?

Uniforms, well, that varies. There is very little known about the "uniforms" of Epirote forces as such. I have seen at least two desgins attributed to Pyrrhic troops. The first is an insignia representing his name, which is often seen on Epirote coins of the time. I d on't know that there is any evidence for this being used on shields, but it has been used on more than one occasion. Some time back, I was also told that tridents were commonly associated with Epirote forces, and I have seen more than one group of Epirote phalangites carrying those insignia. I believe you'll see examples of both in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head.

From a purely archaeological perspective, I am aware of very little, if any, evidence for colors in Pyrrhic forces, let alone insignia. Given that Pyrrhus was a huge admirer of Alexander and considered himself a spiritual (if not literal) descendent, then the Macedonian Star design would probably not be out of question, either.

As for the Italian allies of various kinds, there are some interesting ideas in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars", some of which are available in decal form, but again, there isn't much to go on beyond speculation.

Your Hoplites would have a mix of shield designs, unless they are mercenaries from a particular unit (who occasionally had similar or identical shield patterns) or, perhaps, raised from a specific city state that used a state emblem by the time of the Pyrrhic Wars. There doesn't seem to be much in terms of dedicated shield insignia for the Greek cities in Italy - most of the "state insignia" seem to come from Greece. It has been speculated that Syracusan Hoplites used either a Triskelon or a Dolphin (perhaps a pair of Dolphins). But again, all speculation.

You have a good deal of freedom here to explore your options, but I would recommend getting something like AMPW to get a rough guideline for what would work, and so that you don't do anything too terribly outlandish if you aren't familiar with the period.


-Mithras

Thank you very much for your reply.

As far as the size of the army goes:

"Yes I am collecting up to a 1200pts for each army, but can and have played them at lower point levels. The idea being that I can play from 600pt to 1200pts. Apoligizies for any confusion. They are based for 25mm. Our tables are set up right next to each other so that you can vary game table length based on the size of your battles (sort of like a long bench). We usually go with 6' for 600pts, 8' for 800pts, 10' for 1000pts and 12' for 1200pts (two 4'x6' tables side by side). Thanks" (Copied from an earlier reply for my Mid-Republican Roman and Carthaginian post)

Good catch on the Commanders, this one had a IC and two FC.

"Your Hoplites would have a mix of shield designs, unless they are mercenaries from a particular unit (who occasionally had similar or identical shield patterns) or, perhaps, raised from a specific city state that used a state emblem by the time of the Pyrrhic Wars. There doesn't seem to be much in terms of dedicated shield insignia for the Greek cities in Italy - most of the "state insignia" seem to come from Greece. It has been speculated that Syracusan Hoplites used either a Triskelon or a Dolphin (perhaps a pair of Dolphins). But again, all speculation."

That is cool information, thank you very much. I have been doing research for hellenistic armies and looked heavily into the Greek City State shield designs, I had automatically thought that various Italian factions would have done so as well, so really for shield design I can just have some fun with them (keeping it reasonable though). The research that I did on Syracusan points to the Triskelon.

Tahnks again for your reply

I have tried the 6 cav and found that 4 bases works much better even for the light horse. 6 can get pretty wide even with a huge table, although we once did 1000 points on a 4x8 table, Spanish versus Romans, the Spanish were pretty tight on deployment but it was a great game so I wouldn't be concerned about the 1200 point battle. I personally want to do another 1000 pointer with my Selucids.

For Greek shields check out this site http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson ... rns_1.html

I have never tried pikes in 12's but it might be a good idea with poor troops since bigger numbers means its harder to get a CT on them and their auto break is better. Are your archers LF or MF. I have tried MF archers in 8's and once again found that 6 is better, less frontage for the enemy to get at them and keep your friends from an overlap on them.

A lot of modern historical artists seem to depict many of the tunics worn by the armies as being an orangey red colour, I have adopted this for many of my troops, red being the colour of war for many ancient peoples.

Thanks for the website; it is one of the ones that I checked out. I am still working out the issues for myself on the size of battle groups. The arguement seems to be maneuverability vs survivability & damage potention. In smaller armies I use smaller skirmesher battle groups but the weekness for this particular army is that even at 1200pts I only have three battle groups of skirmishers. This weekness seems to be built into the list (when you look at ratios). This is one of the things I like about building up to 1200pts, it gives you a good idea about an Armies overall strengths and weaknesses. When you look at the smaller sized armies then you have enough of each type to build a flexible army. Even Numidians in low point battles can do this:

Imitation Legionaries 4BG of 6 bases each (192)
Elephants 2BG of 2 bases each (100/292)
Gallic & Spanish Body Guard 1BG 4 bases (48/340)
Numidian Light Horse 4BG of 4 bases each (112/452)
Numidian Javelinmen 3BG of 6 bases each (72/524)
TCx2 (70/594)

Everyone ends up playing a slightly different style of the army in small point battles. People obsess about being tournament capable instead of playing an historical acccurate army and just having fun with it.

Thanks for the advise about battle group size. I have heard both arguements and for right now the jury is still out on that one for me.

Is the orange/red color a general color for the armies or is itspecifically for the Pyrrhic Army? It is funny, I have read that many of the armies that liked to wear red ended up wearing pink eventually, since the fabric quickly faded throughout the campaign. What do you think - pink Pyrrihics?

well...Dead does have pink Companions

Alexanders Companions?

I read somewhere that the Cavalry had white and yellow, while the infantry was Blue/Purple/Pink.

Although I have seen the army done is various colors.

Pink Pyrrihics, sort of has a ring to it doesn't it?

CharlesRobinson wrote:Thanks for the website; it is one of the ones that I checked out. I am still working out the issues for myself on the size of battle groups. The arguement seems to be maneuverability vs survivability & damage potention. In smaller armies I use smaller skirmesher battle groups but the weekness for this particular army is that even at 1200pts I only have three battle groups of skirmishers. This weekness seems to be built into the list (when you look at ratios). This is one of the things I like about building up to 1200pts, it gives you a good idea about an Armies overall strengths and weaknesses. When you look at the smaller sized armies then you have enough of each type to build a flexible army. Even Numidians in low point battles can do this:

Imitation Legionaries 4BG of 6 bases each (192)
Elephants 2BG of 2 bases each (100/292)
Gallic & Spanish Body Guard 1BG 4 bases (48/340)
Numidian Light Horse 4BG of 4 bases each (112/452)
Numidian Javelinmen 3BG of 6 bases each (72/524)
TCx2 (70/594)

Everyone ends up playing a slightly different style of the army in small point battles. People obsess about being tournament capable instead of playing an historical acccurate army and just having fun with it.

Thanks for the advise about battle group size. I have heard both arguements and for right now the jury is still out on that one for me.

Is the orange/red color a general color for the armies or is itspecifically for the Pyrrhic Army? It is funny, I have read that many of the armies that liked to wear red ended up wearing pink eventually, since the fabric quickly faded throughout the campaign. What do you think - pink Pyrrihics?

The use of Red in Successor forces likely comes from Alexander, as the Macedonian tunic color was red, according to most accounts. Pyrrhus, again being fairly obsessed with Alexander, would not have been immune to this possibility. That said, red wasn't the only color used for tunics. It came in a wide variety of colors. White or off-white were very common, as was light grey. The linen armor worn by Pyrrhus' phalangites would likely have been white or off-white; dyed examples weren't unknown, but they are fairly rare so far as I know. So, typically, white/off-white linen armor over a colored tunic.

-M.

CharlesRobinson wrote: The hitorical research though (that I have found) does not describe them as pikemen though, but has Hoplites; so one of my questions is, should I use Italiot models to represent the Hoplites as well as the Tarantine Pikemen?

Sources in Greek can use the word "Hoplites" for any armoured heavy infantry (including Roman legionaries). It just means "armed man" and is not specific to the long spear/large round shield combo that we use it for today.

White linen armour over a tunic with almost any color, possibly red. Thanks for the information on the armor. This jives with the research that I have done, the color for the macedonion army varies though. I have seen some of the armies done in red and they look very nice, but then I read that present information was that Alexanders troops had blue helmets with purple or pink linen tunics. I have seen miniatures painted both ways. The fact that he was obsessed with Alexander does give me a good starting point.

As far as the term hoplite goes, that is new information for me. Depending on the source then you have to be carefull when reading to determine the actual armourment of the Soldiers when reading the term Hoplite. That makes this all the more confusing - fun, fun, fun.

Thanks for both of your replies. I really appreciate it.

well...Dead does have pink Companions

As I have stated before that is a light purple shade they are wearing. I have seen so many minis of companions with purple that I decided to join in with it. My Selucid superior pikes also wear purple tunics.
Light blue also appears to have been a popular colour for tunics, my guess is they cheapest dyes would determine the colour the troops would wear for their tunics. Purple being the most expensive in the ancient world would probably been fairly rare to see except on the units made up of the ruling rich class, or Alexanders army since he probably had most of the currency in existence in his personal bank account. Don't think there was ever an army as rich as good old Als was.

deadtorius wrote:

well...Dead does have pink Companions

As I have stated before that is a light purple shade they are wearing. I have seen so many minis of companions with purple that I decided to join in with it. My Selucid superior pikes also wear purple tunics.
Light blue also appears to have been a popular colour for tunics, my guess is they cheapest dyes would determine the colour the troops would wear for their tunics. Purple being the most expensive in the ancient world would probably been fairly rare to see except on the units made up of the ruling rich class, or Alexanders army since he probably had most of the currency in existence in his personal bank account. Don't think there was ever an army as rich as good old Als was.

Dunno, Dead - Mithridates spent enormous sums on his army. I'd wager his men were fairly well equipped by the standards of the day, and if anybody had purple available, I bet some of his elite units did!

Just a guess, granted.

Still not sure an entire army would be equipped with purple tunics. It was -enormously- expensive and difficult to make. Having seen the "Worst Jobs" episode on being a Purple Maker, you can be certain that would -not- be a job of choice for me in the ancient world!

-M.

As I have stated before that is a light purple shade they are wearing. I have seen so many minis of companions with purple that I decided to join in with it. My Selucid superior pikes also wear purple tunics.
Light blue also appears to have been a popular colour for tunics, my guess is they cheapest dyes would determine the colour the troops would wear for their tunics. Purple being the most expensive in the ancient world would probably been fairly rare to see except on the units made up of the ruling rich class, or Alexanders army since he probably had most of the currency in existence in his personal bank account. Don't think there was ever an army as rich as good old Als was.

Could you post a picture of your minis here for me to see or give me a URL to check them out please.

Thanks

CharlesRobinson wrote:

As I have stated before that is a light purple shade they are wearing. I have seen so many minis of companions with purple that I decided to join in with it. My Selucid superior pikes also wear purple tunics.
Light blue also appears to have been a popular colour for tunics, my guess is they cheapest dyes would determine the colour the troops would wear for their tunics. Purple being the most expensive in the ancient world would probably been fairly rare to see except on the units made up of the ruling rich class, or Alexanders army since he probably had most of the currency in existence in his personal bank account. Don't think there was ever an army as rich as good old Als was.

Could you post a picture of your minis here for me to see or give me a URL to check them out please.

Thanks

Dead's army is very well painted and actually all painted now! I'll see if next time we battle I can photograph it as an AAR and post. I make fun of his companions on the other side of the battlefield only

Dead's army is very well painted and actually all painted now! I'll see if next time we battle I can photograph it as an AAR and post. I make fun of his companions on the other side of the battlefield onl

That is the always the hard part - getting everything painted. I have 5 armies for other games systems that I have still not completed.

That is the always the hard part - getting everything painted. I have 5 armies for other games systems that I have still not completed.

Ah yes, I am lucky this is the only game and only army I currently have on the go. Getting in games with Blathergut every 2 weeks keeps me inspired to add more Roman pounding troops to the army. I am at the point now that I can switch my build around at 800 points... and growing

Well I am flying off on vacation in the morning and just wanted to thank everyone that replied to my post. See you all in a few weeks.