Slitherine

Ok, so my unit of Offensive Spearmen (Blue) charge into the Impact Foot (IF). They couldn't step forward to contact the Cavalry CV so fought the impact combat against the IF alone.

When they conform during the manouver phase they couldn't get past the cavalry without dropping back bases, and I really didn't want to do that because that would expose my flank or rear.

Do I:

drop back and suffer; or,
not conform because I can't.

Actually - taking another look at my diagram I may be a little confusing about how the setup was.

Firstly, I think my BG was wider than it appears. I clipped the IF with about 5mm of the right hand side of my BG overlapping the IF, so if I was going to shift I would shift toward the cavalry.

Secondly, the cavalry was further to the right, as I couldn't step forward to contact them, but they were about 35mm forward from where I ended up (my two ranks of spear couldn't contact them by stepping forward) but the cavalry were certainly in front of my spear and if I wheeled around to conform with the enemy IF during manouver I would end up in contact with the cavalry.


Ian

pg 71
at the start of the manoeuvre phase, that active player's battle groups already in close combat with the enemy must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and or slide slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact.

the battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation, except that each file steps forward to line up the nearest file already in contact with the enemy. this may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

troops that cannot conform by any one of the above methods do not move but continue to fight in an offset formation


by the sounds of it I guess would depend on how you contacted the IF. You would line up with them shifting the least possible, which I guess leaves you hanging out past the cv from what you have said. The last bullet would seem to indicate that you would have to drop any bases infront of the cav back behind the bases in contact so I guess you go into melee at a slight disadvantage.
Personally I would say just line them up but we play friendly games not tournaments

deadtorius wrote:pg 71
at the start of the manoeuvre phase, that active player's battle groups already in close combat with the enemy must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and or slide slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact.

the battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation, except that each file steps forward to line up the nearest file already in contact with the enemy. this may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

troops that cannot conform by any one of the above methods do not move but continue to fight in an offset formation


by the sounds of it I guess would depend on how you contacted the IF. You would line up with them shifting the least possible, which I guess leaves you hanging out past the cv from what you have said. The last bullet would seem to indicate that you would have to drop any bases infront of the cav back behind the bases in contact so I guess you go into melee at a slight disadvantage.
Personally I would say just line them up but we play friendly games not tournaments

There is no dropping back bases when you conform.

If possible, you simply pivot and/or slide your BG the minimum needed to conform to the enemy bases.
If all possible conformed positions are blocked (or you contacted multiple enemy BGs that are not lined up properly) then you don't conform.

In your case you would conform, leaving a tasty flank for the cavalry. Just have to hope you break the IF and pursue out of charge range. Alternatively you could have tried to find a charge direction that alowed you to contact the Cv as well as the IF.

lawrenceg wrote:
There is no dropping back bases when you conform.

If possible, you simply pivot and/or slide your BG the minimum needed to conform to the enemy bases.
If all possible conformed positions are blocked (or you contacted multiple enemy BGs that are not lined up properly) then you don't conform.

An earlier thread established that there is only one possible conform position (the one that has the minimum distance of movement). If you cant conform to that position you dont conform at all.

As you cant pivot to that position I dont think you would conform at all.

Anthony

expendablecinc wrote: An earlier thread established that there is only one possible conform position (the one that has the minimum distance of movement). If you cant conform to that position you dont conform at all.

As you cant pivot to that position I dont think you would conform at all.

Anthony

The position with the minimum distance of those available. So if one is available it is used.

As you cant pivot to that position I dont think you would conform at all.

Anthony

Correct

They would conform to you next time thereby tidying up the battlefield.

Si

That's not very clear Simon. I think you are agreeing with a misunderstood view.

This would be my answer:
There are usually two ways to slide offset bases to conform to get base to base. The conform is to the shortest possible. For example in 15mm if the bases are offset by 5mm, if the slide to the short side is blocked, the conforming slide will be 35mm.

shall wrote:

As you cant pivot to that position I dont think you would conform at all.

Anthony

Correct

They would conform to you next time thereby tidying up the battlefield.

Si

This is how we played it, otherwise you could get some seriously difficult movements.

For instance, what if my BG was even longer (say 12 elements with half of them in a single line) and the cavalry were closer. It seems some would say I'd keep sliding over until such time as I cleared the cavalry. That [could mean that the shift would be 6 bases across, just so you could avoid clipping an enemy and give them the chance to charge your flank.

We played it 'if you can't conform you don't'.

Actually - taking another look at my diagram I may be a little confusing about how the setup was.

Firstly, I think my BG was wider than it appears. I clipped the IF with about 5mm of the right hand side of my BG overlapping the IF, so if I was going to shift I would shift toward the cavalry.

Secondly, the cavalry was further to the right, as I couldn't step forward to contact them, but they were about 35mm forward from where I ended up (my two ranks of spear couldn't contact them by stepping forward) but the cavalry were certainly in front of my spear and if I wheeled around to conform with the enemy IF during manouver I would end up in contact with the cavalry.

Ian

When conforming there is only one valid option. That is moving the bases in contact the shortest distance to line up in either front edge contact or a valid overlap on the enemy. If blocked by other troops or terrain you do not conform, but you conduct melee as if you had conformed. See page 86-87 for clarification. You will note that in the diagram on page 87 the BG of medium foot is blocked from sliding right to line up on the enemy HF. It does NOT then slide left, but fights with the enemy file it most covers as if in frontal contact and the center file as if in overlap.

Thats the outcome of a number of threads now.

viewtopic.php?p=94526#94526
viewtopic.php?p=88924#88924

The upside that the target of the charge cant engineer a final position by blocking spac and forceing some other conform

The downside is that that charging player can be artificially.

eg when charging with my scythed chariots I always try to escort them into contact with some other shock troop . then angle the charge so that the same number of bases hit but so that only one SCCh base hits in such a way that it conforms to overlap rather frontally. Then they dont get removed at the end of the turn if they dont bust up the enemy.

When conforming there is only one valid option. That is moving the bases in contact the shortest distance to line up in either front edge contact or a valid overlap on the enemy. If blocked by other troops or terrain you do not conform, but you conduct melee as if you had conformed. See page 86-87 for clarification. You will note that in the diagram on page 87 the BG of medium foot is blocked from sliding right to line up on the enemy HF. It does NOT then slide left, but fights with the enemy file it most covers as if in frontal contact and the center file as if in overlap.

This is correct and in any circumatance there is only 1 answer; howver I think what Roger is saying earlier is that obstacles can move the valid option to a second alternative (i.e. different from the one that would prevail with no obstacle). Once this is established you then either can or can't.

Si

eg when charging with my scythed chariots I always try to escort them into contact with some other shock troop . then angle the charge so that the same number of bases hit but so that only one SCCh base hits in such a way that it conforms to overlap rather frontally. Then they dont get removed at the end of the turn if they dont bust up the enemy.

Curious about this as I now have scythed chariots and I have never used them in a game yet but was under the impression you either break your opponents or dissapear at the end of the JAP.

How exactly does this prevent them from being auto removed for still contacting non broken enemy?

deadtorius wrote:

eg when charging with my scythed chariots I always try to escort them into contact with some other shock troop . then angle the charge so that the same number of bases hit but so that only one SCCh base hits in such a way that it conforms to overlap rather frontally. Then they dont get removed at the end of the turn if they dont bust up the enemy.

Curious about this as I now have scythed chariots and I have never used them in a game yet but was under the impression you either break your opponents or dissapear at the end of the JAP.

How exactly does this prevent them from being auto removed for still contacting non broken enemy?

He hits w one scythie on one end of the side base of an enemy BG along w another of his BGs that also charges in right beside...so probably 2 bases are contacting that one. Scythie fights in impact as is...but when everything conforms before melee, scythie slides over to overlap position and his other BG faces the enemy frontally. So scythie is not in contact so doesn't die.

Am not sure the slide to overlap is legal or if counting as overlap would kill the scythie.

Ah yes missed the part about it being an overlap, I had considered that too. They only get auto killed if in front contact with non broken enemy so don't die from being an overlap. Biggest problem is they can't manouver much at all, they can only wheel no fancy moves for those boys and being 2 wide and elephant deep I would think would make almost anything but straight in pretty difficult to achieve.
we shall see one of these days

Well, my read is that if it is physically impossible to conform, then the BG does not conform, but fights as if it had. So I don't see how a physical barrier would cause a base to shift in the opposite direction of the Minimum Distance. The only time I can see a base shifting greater than the minimum distance is in the rare instance when the base's nearest apparent conform would cause it to line up in an invalid overlap.

I think its only with impassible items, where they do indeed go the shortest distance which is more than half a base as they take the logner one tog et there. This is still the only option. I guess table edges too e.g.:

T..CV..CV
TKN..KN

Knights should go left on pure distance but would fall of table and can't, but clearly shortest available move is right and still legal. And as I write, also possible to be blocked by friends who can be shifted, or enemy. BAscially impassible and unshuntable items getting in the way of the "easy" conform makes the "longer" conform the option.

Suspect everyone is saying the same thing using different words. There is only ever 1 option and if you can't do it you don't conform, but that 1 option may not be the shortest distance to conform, but the shortest move to conform as table edges and impassible terrain get in the way. If you can't do the 1 option then you stay where you are and fight this way.

That's it.

Si

I don't think there is ever a case where if the shortest move is blocked you go the other way. It is clearly shown on Page 87 that if you can't line up by the shortest distance, you stay put. The diagram shows the MF in offset contact with the enemy HF to its front and an enemy BG in side edge contact cannot slide right, its shortest distance to line up. It does NOT then slide to the left, which would lead to it being in full edge contact with the enemy, because that violates the requirement to move the shortest distance. It is not kept from sliding left by the enemy BG to its right because it is not commited to combat on that side. In the melee phase it fights as if it had completed its conform to the right. Troops that are blocked from conforming normally for whatever reason do not seek out the path of least resistance to conform. They either can or they can't. The only time a base can choose which way to shift is when after any pivot he is lined up in a way that he exactly splits two enemy bases.

deadtorius wrote:

eg when charging with my scythed chariots I always try to escort them into contact with some other shock troop . then angle the charge so that the same number of bases hit but so that only one SCCh base hits in such a way that it conforms to overlap rather frontally. Then they dont get removed at the end of the turn if they dont bust up the enemy.

Curious about this as I now have scythed chariots and I have never used them in a game yet but was under the impression you either break your opponents or dissapear at the end of the JAP.

How exactly does this prevent them from being auto removed for still contacting non broken enemy?

Performing such an act is the path to the dark side.

Regarding post by 'gozerius' above in respect of the diagram on page 87....Can Simon (or other author) please confirm/clarify for me whether this diagram is right and what should happen...?
My understanding from reading these posts is that:
1) The Cav slide to the left to line up.
2) The Infantry cannot slide to the right (shortest route) because of enemy BUT CAN slide to the left after the Cavalry have lined-up as there is now room (eventhough it is a longer route)...?
However the diagram says the infantry stays put - why is this (something to do with breaking the potential overlap contact with the enemy maybe)?
Many thanks

The diag on page 87 is a good spot. And I must admit reading it again you can indeed argue that there is only a single possible conform and I now see that is where it comes from.

What if fails to say - at least the way I have always played it with Terry - is that it is refering to the figures exactly as they stand. |So as they stand the one on the right can conform and the one on the right can't it can shove bases in contact with enemy to make room.

As with anything the active player chooses the order within a line in the turn sequence. If you do this and do the cavalry first then you now have a way to confrom the foot troops. That is legal and legitimate.

So certainly I play it that you could conform both. However seeing the diag with the text attached I now see where the "only 1 option" argument is coming from. Let me bounce that one also back to Terry and Richard for their view and i suspect that does need an FAQ one way or another.

The problem I would have with restricting it is that if you conform the cav then the foot now can conform - do we really want them not doing so?

Interesting.

Si