Slitherine

This is my first attempt at a Late RepRoman list. I'd like to think I could take it to tourney though I am not sure how it will do there. I'd really like it if I can get it into a time period campaign with the local gaming group.

Anyways, let me know what you think:

4x TC
1x BG Vet Legion - 4 stands (Armored, elite, IF, SkSw)
2x BG Legion - 8 stands ea (Armored, superior, IF, SkSw)
2x BG Slack Legion - 8 stands ea (Armored, average, IF, Sw)
2x BG Hvy Cav - 4 stands (Armored, average, LtSpear, Sw)
1x Archers - 8 stands, LF, unprot, ave., undrilled, bow
1x slingers- 6 stands, LF, unprot, ave., undrilled, sling
1x Cretan Archers - 4 stands, LF, unprot, superior, drilled, bow
Fortified Camp

Comes to 10x BG at 800pts.

I really like picking up Armor POAs, so I go for armored over protected where optional. I'm not an experienced skirmisher player (my other armies are Med. Danish and Viking ), so not sure how much 3x BGs of them will help. I know I'll be weaker vs the shooty guys if I don't have something to screen for me, though...

Are Poor (Raw) Legions worth anything?
Should I just max out on the legions (44 stands) and take whatever else I can squeeze in?

thanks!


EDIT: ooops, forgot the fortified camp - been playing Medieval of late....

A Fortified Camp is required (24 points).

I'd worry that with only 7 fighting units yes they are rock hard but the flanks might get swamped.

I'd look at 3x4 for the cavalry - much more manouverable that way.

I'd like to see it if anyone takes you on head first with infantry - ooo that's going to hurt them.

Regards

Graham

grahambriggs wrote:I'd worry that with only 7 fighting units yes they are rock hard but the flanks might get swamped.

I'd look at 3x4 for the cavalry - much more manouverable that way.

I'd like to see it if anyone takes you on head first with infantry - ooo that's going to hurt them.

Regards

Graham

I am not sure how I can get much more than 7x fighting BGs out of this list - like I said, am new to Romans - heck new to FoG in generall still.

are you suggesting it might be better to take smaller Legion BGs so that I have more?

Are my skirmishers just too inadequate to cover my flanks? Should I use pointage for them to take more combat BGs?

I guess I could trade some LF for another Cav BG, I just don't have much faith in Roman Cav, so I am really only envisioning them to provide rear support and cover flanks.

It might make more sense to take the superior legionaries as BG's of 4 rather than as 8's Gives you a higher break point and more flexibility when fighting someone who isn't willing to just line up and take the legionaries on frontally. Not sure if the Elite BG is worth the extra points or if you'd be better taking them as superior and using the points some place else.

Chris

This was my latest vs Seleucids:

6 BGs each 4 Superior Legionaries
(I've tried Bgs of 8 poor...they have died every time...simply too brittle)(Bgs of 4 are much more adaptable to the situation..capable of moving onto flanks)
2 BGs of slingers
2 BGs each of 4 average protected Cav (for flank protection and self-sacrifice for the greater good!)
1BG of 4 LH
1BG of 6 MF offensive spears drilled
1 BG of 6 Dacian MF superior unprotected HW
1 BG of 8 Dacian MF IF average
1 BG of 6 Dacian MF bows
1BG of 8 Dacian LF javelins
2 TC + an allied TC

I prefer to run the romans in 4paks...i love terrain so some terrain MF...this army has given the Seleucids a definite run for their money both times now. Elites sound nice but don't give you much more for a lot of pts cost. A 4pak of superior autobreaks at same point. Take the cav in 4paks, more manoeverable and you could take 2 out of each of those 6paks and have a 3rd BG. LH is very nimble, esp. if you get first move and stick a commander with them . Four TC are nice but in truth the Romans do well on their own as superiors. The 6pak of Dacian unprotected MF HW sounds vulerable, but with the allied TC leading them, they target any enemy spear unit and just carve their way through!!

I would agree, drop the elite legion for vetran, and make your legions 4 paks, much more manouverable. Light horse is a must I think, put in a commander double it up to your opponent and block his double moves. use them to draw his shock troops out of their line, or to threaten a flank charge. If you can do it the superior cav is probably a better bet with the romans for the most part.
Having been on the receiving end of Dacian allies, unless you are up against a shooty army they will pretty much eat anything in their path so far in our games.
Personally I would try to keep the cretans in a 6 pak since you only get 1/2 dice for them for shooting and the reroll might come in handy. some games they do a lot others they do nothing all depends on your die rolls but the rerolls does help.

I wouldnt worry much about the romans versus a shooty army, your armour will cause them to get a POA - which should put them at 5's to hit.

I haven't tried using Late Republicans yet (though will try and do a list for Actium at some point for my Augustan army. I would definitely have the Legions in fours and reduce the heavy cavalry to 2 (or even 1) BGs of 4 and try and get as many Light Horse battle groups as possible. LSpr cavalry do not seem to be that great, undrilled is worse. I have not had good experiences with skirmishers either. They cannot hold flanks against any mounted so are restricted to operating in front of other troops.

4 commanders is worth having as rallying units is very important. Only having 3 tends to mean that something begins to give leaving a hole in the army. I doubt I would be able to resist Elite legionaries as a Caesar army would have to have the Tenth in its line.

I would suggest choosing a battle and making the army fit rather than trying to work out the perfect combination as I don't think there is one.

Eusebius wrote:I am not sure how I can get much more than 7x fighting BGs out of this list - like I said, am new to Romans - heck new to FoG in generall still.

are you suggesting it might be better to take smaller Legion BGs so that I have more?

Are my skirmishers just too inadequate to cover my flanks? Should I use pointage for them to take more combat BGs?

I guess I could trade some LF for another Cav BG, I just don't have much faith in Roman Cav, so I am really only envisioning them to provide rear support and cover flanks.

If the cav is just giving rear support and flank guards then they don't need to be large BGs and armoured sword cavalry can put up a decent fight against most things in period. The legions are your arm of decision, so that is where you should be investing your points.

LF is pretty good in BGs of 8 if you can get them as it makes them less vulnerable to enemy shooters. I would keep at least 2 groups of these to shield your cavalry from enemy shooting (armoured foot are fairly resistant to shooting) and shoot back at evasive enemy. Skirmishers alone, especially LF, are not very effective at protecting your flanks, but are synergistic with your cavalry. 8 superior cretans can also dish out a lot of punishment to an isolated enemy BG.

With regards to the LF, I would opt for the velites option: LF, l.spear, javelin, protected.

It's a small army and the role of the LF is to push enemy LF out of the way to allow your legions to double move all they can towards their objectives. Lots of slingers and archers won't give you a decisive advantage against other LF and will waste time in desultory skirmishing. The velites will allow you to charge them out of the way as they most likely will have an advantage at impact and certainly in melee. LF will also become a target a choice for enemy mounted who would rather kill them than legionnaries so it's not a good idea to have too many. LH on the other hand are much harder to catch and are a "cheap" way of bumping up BG numbers.

Julian

I have used LRR romans a bit now in FOG and found the following works for me..
(105BC - 100BC)
1x IC
2x TC
1x Fort. Camp.
7x BG's of 4x Superior Legions
1x BG of 4x Elite Legions (Coz I like them, also painted as ex-trarii)
1x BG of 4x Superior Protected Cav.
1x BG of 6x Cretans Archers
1x BG of 2x Elephants
1x BG of 6x Protected LF, Average, Jav, LSP.

I know people usually advise against an IC in romans, but it has more than once allowed me to pass massed shooting on a flank unit. The EL & Protected Lf work together as a group and the Prot Superior Cav and Cretans work together. I find the mutual support works very well. The elephants are there to target Ct and Kn (open comps).

I have tired using Average legions and found they just die.. even in 6's or 8's... 4's of superiors give me much more manoverablilty, which is one of the strenghts of this army. Even if you miss deploy given the small frontage, I have on the whole been able to correct most things..

We won a tournament with this list. It's my doubles partner's army and I've played against it many times. It's very, very difficult to beat. I don't particularly care for the BGs of 4 legionaries, but haven't worked out a list of my own using only 6s.
TC commander
3xTC subcommander
4x6 Superior Legionaries
2x4 Superior Legionaries
2x4 light horse jav/lt spear
1x4 gallic cav (superior)
1x6 LF archers (average)
1x6 LF Cretan archers (superior)
fortified camp

It was in 25s on 8x5 tables. Flanks were only a problem against steppe trash. It's hard to kill and it kills pretty much everything it can touch.

Stick one of your generals with your lights on turn 1 to double move your lights into your opponents face, only works if you get first move though. this usually prevents him from getting any double moves since your lights, especially light horse will end up pretty much within 6 MU of most enemies after they do their initial first move.
During the joint action phase your generals run back to join the legions who can then double move behind the light wall of annoyance.
I've done it in most games and it works. Only down side to romans is they are slow

So I'm leaning towards Slingers/Cretans/archers over the LH for now at least cause I've got the figures. I like the point about Velites beinging an aggresive anti-skirmisher and I do have them as well so I intend to try both options.

I don't like going with BGs of 4 stands, but I usually play with a bigger BG mentality - simply because attaching a commander to a BG with maxed stands means more stands with the reroll bonuses. Apart from added manueverability on small BGs and a higher BG count for my army what else am I gaining for the small BGs?

Do those small BG pro's out do the big BG pro's of more commander reroll bonuses across the Legion stands or CT bonuses?

Has anyone ever tried taking a Roman Army of nothing but legions?

Like maybe:

4xTC (1 is probably not needed)
3x Vet Legions of 4
3x Legions of 8 (or 6x of 4)
2x Hvy Cav
FCamp

Eusebius wrote:Apart from added manueverability on small BGs and a higher BG count for my army what else am I gaining for the small BGs?

Do those small BG pro's out do the big BG pro's of more commander reroll bonuses across the Legion stands or CT bonuses?

The manoeverability is important (trying to hit flanks). BG count is important otherwise 10 comes pretty quickly. That could be 2 or 3 of your light stuff and a BG or two of romans. The superiors will be rerolling 1s on their own. How many 2s typically pop up? Plus, the small BGs let you hit w one, sacrifice it, while hitting somewhere else.

I have tried mixed BG of legions with 2X4 and 2X8
the larger BG's can take more hits with less worry about CT's, but they can't manouver that easily even though drilled so its pretty much a forward steam roll whats in front of you kind of army. The 2 4 packs are manouverable but if your enemy is swarming you its not enough help and your big 8 flanks start looking tempting to the enemy.

I suggest you give it a try and see, we started with big BG's but after a few games found the smaller frontage is easier to move and does not get in the way as often.