Slitherine

I was setting up a quick single player battle between Samnite 355-272 BC and Roman 340-281 and I've noticed something: the Apulian army is present as Samnite Allies but it is not present as Roman Allies. As Saminte allies, the Apulian presence is a bit forced but it is ok: during the first and the third saminte war a little apulian army (the Dauni people) joined the Samintes against the Romans. But during the second end the third war (expecially the second) the great part of Apulian (the Japigi people) joined the Roman against Saminites. One of the most important historical evidence of this is the Ab Urbe Condita by Titus Livius (book 8 chapter 27):

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... 99.02.0026

So I think that the Apulian Army should figure also between the possible allies of Roman 340-281 and Roman 280-220 BC against the Samnites.

What do you think of this?

Regards,
Mr.Crow

It would seem acceptable to add Apulian allies to the 340-281 Roman list, but why the 280-220 list? The 3rd Samnite war ended in 290 BC.

Thank you for your answer and for considering as acceptable to add Apulian allies to the 340-281 Roman list.

Anyway you are right: I've completely forgot to justify why I think that also the 280-220 list should have them and I've not even wrote anything about Phyrric and Punic wars. So I've decided to summarize each littel historical error with its own explaination, even the ones that I've not even mentioned early. Sorry if this message will be long, but I particularly want to provide you with all the details to convince you of the validity of my statements. All of those litte error can be fixed without any particular upheaval of current structures.

Lets start with an assumption: in Field of Glory II Apulian are represented for understendable reason as a single faction. But they were composed by 3 illyrian "subfaction": Dauni, Iapyges (also known as Paucetian by the greeks) and Messapians. Those 3 factions have acted in their own way during the history.

Now lets start with the list of little errors:

- the timeframe of the apulian list should start in 473 BC and not in 420. The main reason of this is that the 473 BC is the year in which Apulian (Messapians and Paucetians) defeated the Greeks (send by Taras colony) during the Battle of Kailìa. You can read about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_warfare and here https://military-history.fandom.com/wik ... a_-_473_BC but also Herodotus and Deodoro Siculo wrote about it. In particular Herodotus refers about this battle talking as "the greatest slaughter of Greeks in his knowledge"

- Apulians should be added as allies to the Roman 340-281: i've already described why in my previous post

- Apulians should be added as allies to the Roman 280-220 and also to Pyrrich 280-275BC: during the Phyrric war, Messapians joined Phyrrhus but Dauni joined the Romans, expecially in the Battle of Asculum (you can read about this here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_War and here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asculum) . As I said, both Messapians and Dauni were Apulians.

- Apulians should be added as allies to the Roman 219-200 BC: when Hannibal arrived in Italy, Iapyges join the Roman side and fought with them agains Hannibal in the battle of Cannae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae). After the roman defeat in Cannae, they left the roman side for just 2 years and then they rejoined it in 214BC after the Battle of Arpi

That's all.

What do you think? Did I manage to convince you?

Thank you for your attention,
Mr.Crow

MrCrow wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:14 am What do you think? Did I manage to convince you?

Well it is at least as good as the evidence for some other allies, so why not?

I will hopefully get this into the next Ancients update. (Though not in Time Warp in Medieval - because the build for the next update of that is already done, and I don't want to risk messing it up for the sake of allies that aren't relevant to anachronistic matchups)

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:57 am

MrCrow wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:14 am What do you think? Did I manage to convince you?

Well it is at least as good as the evidence for some other allies, so why not?

I will hopefully get this into the next Ancients update. (Though not in Time Warp in Medieval - because the build for the next update of that is already done, and I don't want to risk messing it up for the sake of allies that aren't relevant to anachronistic matchups)

Great! Thank you

I post here a quick recap to help you find the required changes:

- Apulian list timeframe should be modified from 420-203 BC to 473-203 BC
- Apulian should be added as allies to Roman 340-281 BC
- Apulian should be added as allies to Roman 280-220 BC
- Apulian should be added as allies to Roman 219-200 BC
- Apulian should be added as allies to Pyrrich 280-275 BC

Thank you,
Mr.Crow

Thanks, I would have forgotten the Roman 219-200 BC list.

Thanks from me too Mr.Crow, I will also include these in the next update of my TT Mod.