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Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 5:16 am
by Dux Limitis
I found the current Chagatai army list in the game only covers the Chagatai army from 1338 to 1500 AD, but the Chagatai Khanate already existed in 1226(or independently from 1266). Lacking the Chagatai army list before 1338 AD makes many battles that occurred in this period can't be simulated, like the Chagatai invasion of India, etc.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:33 am
by rbodleyscott
Can you suggest a composition for the list?
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:07 pm
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:33 am
Can you suggest a composition for the list?
I think the Chagatai army composition is similar to the Ilkhanids. With the majority of Mongol units and some Muslim units like a proportion of Turcoman cavalry, with Muslim irregular foot, javalinmen and archers(from the Chagatai-ruled Islamic regions like Afghanistan, Tajik etc.), maybe should increase the number of the Best-Equipped cavalry(depends on the date of start of the army list), according to Raschid al-Din of the Ilkhanid, on the death of the Genghis Khan in 1227, the Chagatai Khan has 1000 picked-men and 4000 guards, If the army list starts from 1266 this number is perhaps outdated.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:47 pm
by Paul59
Currently the Chagatai list has the same allocation of Best Equipped cavalry as the Timurids and the later Mamluks, are we suggesting that the Chagatai should have more?
Why not just move the start date back to 1226/1266 for the current Chagatai list?
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:57 pm
by fogman
"I think the Chagatai army composition is similar to the Ilkhanids."
The Chatagai fought the Ilkhanids at Herat in 1270 and according to some, the Ilkhanids had more heavier cavalry, or that they had better horses.
http://mongol.huji.ac.il/sites/default/ ... 0Herat.pdf
But that's still an interpretation. The primary sources do not dwell on those aspects.
However, if one wants to have some differentiations for ludic purposes, and one should, that's something to use.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:52 am
by Dux Limitis
fogman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:57 pm
The Chatagai fought the Ilkhanids at Herat in 1270 and according to some, the Ilkhanids had more heavier cavalry, or that they had better horses.
Mongol Best-Equipped cavalry's armour ratings are the same in the game, if you want to simulate that you have to change the armour ratings of the Ilkhanid cavalry, but I don't think it's a good idea and it's way too bottom-up.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:55 am
by Dux Limitis
Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:47 pm
Currently the Chagatai list has the same allocation of Best Equipped cavalry as the Timurids and the later Mamluks, are we suggesting that the Chagatai should have more?
Why not just move the start date back to 1226/1266 for the current Chagatai list?
You should ask Mr.Richard for the final decision.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:28 am
by Paul59
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:55 am
Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:47 pm
Currently the Chagatai list has the same allocation of Best Equipped cavalry as the Timurids and the later Mamluks, are we suggesting that the Chagatai should have more?
Why not just move the start date back to 1226/1266 for the current Chagatai list?
You should ask Mr.Richard for the final decision.
It's you that wants a change, I was just pointing out a couple of things that might help his decision.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:05 pm
by fogman
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:52 am
Mongol Best-Equipped cavalry's armour ratings are the same in the game, if you want to simulate that you have to change the armour ratings of the Ilkhanid cavalry, but I don't think it's a good idea and it's way too bottom-up.
To obtain the same general effect, you give the Chatagai a lesser amount of best-equipped cavalry, or conversely increase that of the Ilkhanids.
The logic here is that in occupying the settled, urbanized parts of Iran, the Ilkhanids had better access to the production of armour and weapons, also through more sophisticated bureaucracy [in the same way, but less pronounced than the Yuen Mongols in China] than the Chatagai who remained on the steppes and were more traditionalists.
To balance it out, the Chatagais can be argued to be better at doing the ‘steppes thing’: better mobility, better archery, which in game terms can be achieved with higher morale ratings, or/and drill ratings.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:26 pm
by Dux Limitis
Paul59 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:28 am
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:55 am
Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:47 pm
Currently the Chagatai list has the same allocation of Best Equipped cavalry as the Timurids and the later Mamluks, are we suggesting that the Chagatai should have more?
Why not just move the start date back to 1226/1266 for the current Chagatai list?
You should ask Mr.Richard for the final decision.
It's you that wants a change, I was just pointing out a couple of things that might help his decision.
I already posted my opinion. It's all up to Mr.Richard to decide whether the army list will start from 1226 or 1266, if the army list starts from 1226 I already said perhaps should add more Best-Equipped cavalry as I indicated by account.
And what is "I want a change"? The Chagatai Khanate already exist before 1338 and did involve in some campaigns. An army list before this date can let the players set up more custom battles like the Chagatai versus Ilkhanid, Muslim India etc. I'm just trying to make some reasonable suggestions to help improve the game.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:27 pm
by Paul59
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:26 pm
Paul59 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:28 am
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:55 am
You should ask Mr.Richard for the final decision.
It's you that wants a change, I was just pointing out a couple of things that might help his decision.
I already posted my opinion. It's all up to Mr.Richard to decide whether the army list will start from 1226 or 1266, if the army list starts from 1226 I already said perhaps should add more Best-Equipped cavalry as I indicated by account.
And what is "I want a change"? The Chagatai Khanate already exist before 1338 and did involve in some campaigns. An army list before this date can let the players set up more custom battles like the Chagatai versus Ilkhanid, Muslim India etc. I'm just trying to make some reasonable suggestions to help improve the game.
Adding a new Chagatai army list, or amending the current one to start earlier
is a change. Or maybe your definition of "change" is different to mine?
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:25 am
by Dux Limitis
Paul59 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:27 pm
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:26 pm
Paul59 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:28 am
It's you that wants a change, I was just pointing out a couple of things that might help his decision.
I already posted my opinion. It's all up to Mr.Richard to decide whether the army list will start from 1226 or 1266, if the army list starts from 1226 I already said perhaps should add more Best-Equipped cavalry as I indicated by account.
And what is "I want a change"? The Chagatai Khanate already exist before 1338 and did involve in some campaigns. An army list before this date can let the players set up more custom battles like the Chagatai versus Ilkhanid, Muslim India etc. I'm just trying to make some reasonable suggestions to help improve the game.
Adding a new Chagatai army list, or amending the current one to start earlier
is a change. Or maybe your definition of "change" is different to mine?
I already clarified what I said. It's all up to Mr.Richard to make the final decision now, neither you nor me can't.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:17 am
by Paul59
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:25 am
Paul59 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:27 pm
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:26 pm
I already posted my opinion. It's all up to Mr.Richard to decide whether the army list will start from 1226 or 1266, if the army list starts from 1226 I already said perhaps should add more Best-Equipped cavalry as I indicated by account.
And what is "I want a change"? The Chagatai Khanate already exist before 1338 and did involve in some campaigns. An army list before this date can let the players set up more custom battles like the Chagatai versus Ilkhanid, Muslim India etc. I'm just trying to make some reasonable suggestions to help improve the game.
Adding a new Chagatai army list, or amending the current one to start earlier
is a change. Or maybe your definition of "change" is different to mine?
I already clarified what I said. It's all up to Mr.Richard to make the final decision now, neither you nor me can't.
Looking back on this discussion I think we have misunderstood a lot of what the other was saying. My first post was not addressed to you, I was offering my thoughts to Richard on the issue of the Chagatai. I was not asking you to decide on what should be done.
My own view is that the Chagatai should have a list covering the period back to 1266 (or 1226 if that is the more historically accurate date), after all I did design an Epic Battle for the Swords and Scimitars DLC that featured the Chagatai (Kili 1299) that predates the current Chagatai army list. We did not include a Chagatai army list with Swords and Scimitars, it was added later with the Sublime Porte DLC (probably because Richard needed them for the Timurid campaign), and Richard and I obviously didn't think to back date it to cover the earlier period. The easiest solution now is to simply change the start date for the existing Chagatai list, as evidence on their army composition seems to be very sparse and not sufficient to warrant a new list. That, of course, is for Richard to decide.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:17 pm
by Dux Limitis
Paul59 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:17 am
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:25 am
Paul59 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:27 pm
Adding a new Chagatai army list, or amending the current one to start earlier
is a change. Or maybe your definition of "change" is different to mine?
I already clarified what I said. It's all up to Mr.Richard to make the final decision now, neither you nor me can't.
Looking back on this discussion I think we have misunderstood a lot of what the other was saying. My first post was not addressed to you, I was offering my thoughts to Richard on the issue of the Chagatai. I was not asking you to decide on what should be done.
My own view is that the Chagatai should have a list covering the period back to 1266 (or 1226 if that is the more historically accurate date), after all I did design an Epic Battle for the Swords and Scimitars DLC that featured the Chagatai (Kili 1299) that predates the current Chagatai army list. We did not include a Chagatai army list with Swords and Scimitars, it was added later with the Sublime Porte DLC (probably because Richard needed them for the Timurid campaign), and Richard and I obviously didn't think to back date it to cover the earlier period. The easiest solution now is to simply change the start date for the existing Chagatai list, as evidence on their army composition seems to be very sparse and not sufficient to warrant a new list. That, of course, is for Richard to decide.
I re-think about it, I think make the current Chagatai list covering the period back to 1226 or 1266 is a more conservative approach, as many details of the army list are still unclear, perhaps we'll see it in the next update.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:23 am
by rbodleyscott
The change (start date 1266) didn't make it into the v1.5.9 open beta (it slipped my mind), but it will be in the next release update.
Re: Missing Chagatai army list before 1338 AD?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:33 pm
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:23 am
The change (start date 1266) didn't make it into the v1.5.9 open beta (it slipped my mind), but it will be in the next release update.
Thanks for the telling mister.