Slitherine

As I'm experimenting with different options, I've come up with a couple other possibilities to throw at my would-be opponents. Again, my first confirmed opponent has plans for a Late Republican Roman list, so I'm trying to create an army that will at least give a good showing. Not looking to win every battle, just have fun with historically appropriate forces; that said, winning every once and a while would be nice;)

I'm trying to stay strictly within a late time frame for these forces, so no Elephants in either list, though they are certainly tempting.

Later Ptolemaic @ 792 points

1 x FC @ 50 points
2 x TC @ 35 points
2 x 4 Xystophoroi (Armored Superior Drilled Cavalry, Lancer Swordsmen)
1 x 4 Light Horse (Unprotected Average Drilled Light Horse, Javelins)
1 x 4 Galatian Cavalry (Armored Superior Undrilled Cavalry, Light Spear Swordsmen)
2 x 6 Thorakitai (Armored Average Drilled Medium Foot, Offensive Swordsmen)
2 x 6 Legionaries (Armored Superior Drilled Heavy Foot, Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen)
1 x 12 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled Heavy Foot, Pikemen)
1 x 6 Cretan Archers (Unprotected Superior Drilled Light Foot, Bows)
1 x 6 Ptolemaic Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Javelin-armed Light Spearmen)
1 x 4 Thracian Foot (Protected Average Undrilled Medium Foot, Heavy Weapons)

The thought on this list is to project a 1st Century AD Ptolemaic Force circa 55 AD, or perhaps a little earlier. The Legions might represent deserters, or they might well be modeled as particularly good "Romanized Foot", haven't decided on that bit yet.

Later Seleucid @ 800 points

1 x FC @ 50 points
2 x TC @ 35 points
2 x 12 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled Heavy Foot, Pikemen) @ 72 points each
2 x 6 Romanized Argyraspides (Armored Superior Drilled Heavy Foot, Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen) @ 84 points each
1 x 6 Thorakitai (Armored Average Drilled Medium Foot, Offensive Spearmen) @ 60 points
2 x 6 Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Bows) @ 30 points each
2 x 4 Agema (Heavily Armored Superior Drilled Cataphracts, Lancer Swordsmen) @ 80 points each
1 x 4 Skythian Horse Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Horse, Bow Swordsmen) @ 40 points
1 x 6 Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Javelin-armed Light Spearmen) @ 24 points
1 x 6 Slingers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Slings) @ 24 points

Once again, any suggestions, comments, etc. would be welcome. I'm grateful for your thoughts and assistance.

-M.

Mithras wrote:As I'm experimenting with different options, I've come up with a couple other possibilities to throw at my would-be opponents. Again, my first confirmed opponent has plans for a Late Republican Roman list, so I'm trying to create an army that will at least give a good showing. Not looking to win every battle, just have fun with historically appropriate forces; that said, winning every once and a while would be nice;)

I'm trying to stay strictly within a late time frame for these forces, so no Elephants in either list, though they are certainly tempting.

Later Ptolemaic @ 792 points

1 x FC @ 50 points
2 x TC @ 35 points
2 x 4 Xystophoroi (Armored Superior Drilled Cavalry, Lancer Swordsmen)
1 x 4 Light Horse (Unprotected Average Drilled Light Horse, Javelins)
1 x 4 Galatian Cavalry (Armored Superior Undrilled Cavalry, Light Spear Swordsmen)
2 x 6 Thorakitai (Armored Average Drilled Medium Foot, Offensive Swordsmen)
2 x 6 Legionaries (Armored Superior Drilled Heavy Foot, Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen)
1 x 12 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled Heavy Foot, Pikemen)
1 x 6 Cretan Archers (Unprotected Superior Drilled Light Foot, Bows)
1 x 6 Ptolemaic Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Javelin-armed Light Spearmen)
1 x 4 Thracian Foot (Protected Average Undrilled Medium Foot, Heavy Weapons)

Personally:

I think the FC is a waste of points. The only reason I'd have a FC is if I was expecting to do an Outflank. That said, I do give my allies a FC sometimes, but that's because he's the only one there, so he'd need to cover more ground than my other troops;
I'd go with BG's of 4 Legionaries (If you can) and 2 BG's of 8 Phalangites. If you have the points go with 2 BG's of 10 Phalangites with the phalanx being 5 deep; and,
I like the Thorakotai - they kick 7 different shades of arse!

Ian

Completely agree with DaiSho re the FC and the Thorakitai! The FC brings no significant benefit and I think the Seleucids benefit from having a low PBI so they get first(double) move.

I try to couple the thorakitai with some thracians as 2 x tough MF bgs working together can secure flank-placed tough terrain and then turn onto an enemy flank. I also don't use the "roman" argyraspids myself but if I did it would be 2 x 4 base BGs and have a bg of 8 superior pikemen. I also think that pikes do work as well in 8s provided you don't let any one BG become isolated.

I think at this point count, 2 x LF bgs will be enough. I don't recall whether the Seleucids can take "poor" LF but these are surpisingly cost effective in BGs of 8.

IMO Seleucids are a strong army in period and a fair bet in open competition.

I have never tried the Ptolemaic army in the version you propose but I would have the legionaries in BGs of 4 bases if superior and armoured. I like the idea of 2 x Thorakitai!! In which case I'd drop the BG of Thracians and maybe take a few more pike, if allowed. It looks a useful force!

Martin

a quick comment:

The seleucid list is not legal as you cannot have more than 8 bases of romanized argyraspides.

In both your army list you have too few commanders (IMO 4 is best in 800 points armies) and too few HF. This because you have too much tough guys (superior, armoured, with 4 arms, etc.). With so few men, you must concentrate a big blow against opponent and hoping nothing goes wrong. With a larger army, using some options of lower cost, you can fight on a larger front and using your best troops to break enemy front.

Regarding Later Seleucid (one of my favourite ancient army), this is the list I usually use:

Later Seleucid @ 800 points

1 x FC @ 50 points
2 x TC @ 35 points
2 x 8 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled Heavy Foot, Pikemen) @ 72 points each
1 x 6 Romanized Argyraspides (Armored Superior Drilled Heavy Foot, Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen) @ 84 points
1 x 6 Thorakitai (Protected Average Drilled Medium Foot, Offensive Spearmen) @ 48 points
1 x 6 Thracians (Protected Average Undrilled Medium Foot, Heavy weapon) @ 42 points
2 x 6 Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Bows) @ 30 points each
2 x 4 Agema (Heavily Armored Superior Drilled Cataphracts, Lancer Swordsmen) @ 80 points each
1x4 Companions (Armored Elite Drilled Cavalry, Lancer Swordsmen) @ 80 points each
1 x 4 Horse Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Horse, Bow) @ 32 points
1 x 4 Tarantine cavalry (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Horse, Javelin-armed Light Spearmen) @ 28 points
1 x 2 Elephats

I guess 12 bases for each BG of phalanx are too much (10 could be a good alternative to have 4th rank if you loose one base).

I'm used to deploy in one flank of phalanx thw Elephants and the Companions in the reserve in order to move them when you need.

With 2 BG of MF it's better to play with Hilly and not Agricultural, even if they are protected (suffering with shhoting) and one of them is undrilled so more difficult to manouvre.

But in this why you have a strong wing with 2 BG of CT's and if you need also Companions.

If you play in an open tournament, against KN's you have pikemen and in particularly Elephants (better to use them with 1 TC).

Sergio

marioslaz wrote:In both your army list you have too few commanders (IMO 4 is best in 800 points armies) and too few HF. This because you have too much tough guys (superior, armoured, with 4 arms, etc.). With so few men, you must concentrate a big blow against opponent and hoping nothing goes wrong. With a larger army, using some options of lower cost, you can fight on a larger front and using your best troops to break enemy front.

I disagree. You get a lot more bang with the tough stuff. You can hit his average stuff with tough stuff and just skirmish the rest of his points. More chance of a victory than spreading your points thinly.

Mithras wrote:As I'm experimenting with different options, I've come up with a couple other possibilities to throw at my would-be opponents. Again, my first confirmed opponent has plans for a Late Republican Roman list, so I'm trying to create an army that will at least give a good showing. Not looking to win every battle, just have fun with historically appropriate forces; that said, winning every once and a while would be nice;)

I'm trying to stay strictly within a late time frame for these forces, so no Elephants in either list, though they are certainly tempting.

Later Ptolemaic @ 792 points

1 x FC @ 50 points
2 x TC @ 35 points
2 x 4 Xystophoroi (Armored Superior Drilled Cavalry, Lancer Swordsmen)
1 x 4 Light Horse (Unprotected Average Drilled Light Horse, Javelins)
1 x 4 Galatian Cavalry (Armored Superior Undrilled Cavalry, Light Spear Swordsmen)
2 x 6 Thorakitai (Armored Average Drilled Medium Foot, Offensive Swordsmen)
2 x 6 Legionaries (Armored Superior Drilled Heavy Foot, Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen)
1 x 12 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled Heavy Foot, Pikemen)
1 x 6 Cretan Archers (Unprotected Superior Drilled Light Foot, Bows)
1 x 6 Ptolemaic Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Javelin-armed Light Spearmen)
1 x 4 Thracian Foot (Protected Average Undrilled Medium Foot, Heavy Weapons)

The thought on this list is to project a 1st Century AD Ptolemaic Force circa 55 AD, or perhaps a little earlier. The Legions might represent deserters, or they might well be modeled as particularly good "Romanized Foot", haven't decided on that bit yet.

First on the ptolemaics. If you want to be historical (and I think you mean 55BC rather than AD here?) it's pretty hard to imagine roman legionaries and pikemen in the same army. The legionaries would be from the time of Caesar at least, but more likely represent something like Mark Antony's army.

To the list itself, I don't see much value in having one pike block. It's surrounded by other heavy foot which is okay, but my experience has been it's better to have a lot of pikes or none at all. I don't know what the thracian foot is supposed to do. There aren't enough of them to contest anything in terrain. I agree with other posters that at 800 points you really should have 4 generals. I disagree with other posters that the legions are better in 4s.

The Later Seleucid is my favourite army (though I'm still struggling to use it well). I have tried a lot of configurations but this is what I'm trying at the moment:

4 x TC @ 35Pts
3 x 8 Phalangites (Protected, Average, Drilled, Heavy Foot, Pikemen) @ 48 Pts each
1 x 6 Thorakitai (Armoured, Average, Drilled, Medium Foot, Offensive Spearmen) @ 60 Pts
1 x 6 Thracian Foot (Protected, Average, Undrilled, Medium Foot, Heavy Weapon) @ 42 Pts
1 x 6 Archers (Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Light Foot, Bow) @ 18 Pts
1 x 6 Slingers (Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Light Foot, Sling) @ 12 Pts
2 x 4 Cataphracts (Heavily Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Cataphracts, Lancer, Swordsmen) @ 80 Pts each
1 x 4 Galatian Cavalry (Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Cavalry, Light Spear, Swordsmen) @ 64 Pts
1 x 4 Tarantine Cavalry (Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Light Horse, Javelins, Light Spear) @ 28 Pts
1 x 4 Horse Archers (Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Light Horse, Bow) @ 32 Pts
2 x 2 Elephants @ 50 Pts each

Mithras wrote: Later Seleucid @ 800 points

1 x FC @ 50 points
2 x TC @ 35 points
2 x 12 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled Heavy Foot, Pikemen) @ 72 points each
2 x 6 Romanized Argyraspides (Armored Superior Drilled Heavy Foot, Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen) @ 84 points each
1 x 6 Thorakitai (Armored Average Drilled Medium Foot, Offensive Spearmen) @ 60 points
2 x 6 Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Bows) @ 30 points each
2 x 4 Agema (Heavily Armored Superior Drilled Cataphracts, Lancer Swordsmen) @ 80 points each
1 x 4 Skythian Horse Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Horse, Bow Swordsmen) @ 40 points
1 x 6 Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Javelin-armed Light Spearmen) @ 24 points
1 x 6 Slingers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Slings) @ 24 points

Once again, any suggestions, comments, etc. would be welcome. I'm grateful for your thoughts and assistance.

-M.

Someone already pointed out that you can't have 12 Romanized Argyraspids. I've tried using this army with 6 or 8 and haven't been able to get it to work out that well, but your mileage may vary. When I do this army I take the cataphracts in 6s. I use 2 groups, but one of them as part of an ally. I'd lose the lf archers, 2 BGs of skirmishers are enough. I've not found much use for 4 skythian horse archers ever either. If you take an ally to get a second group of cataphracts cheaper you can get 1 or 2 BGs of horse archers from that. (I've taken them as 1 BG of superior cataphracts with their ally general glued to them and 2 BGs of horse archers who run around and be mischievous, but the trouble with this is if those guys get shot up you'll never get them to recover 'cause their general is glued to the cataphracts). I'm not fond of thorakitai as MF. They're a little dicey against HF and mounted as MF and I don't seem to gain much in battles by fighting in terrain, but again, YMMV. And I agree with others that this is probably best served with 4 generals.

philqw78 wrote:

marioslaz wrote:In both your army list you have too few commanders (IMO 4 is best in 800 points armies) and too few HF. This because you have too much tough guys (superior, armoured, with 4 arms, etc.). With so few men, you must concentrate a big blow against opponent and hoping nothing goes wrong. With a larger army, using some options of lower cost, you can fight on a larger front and using your best troops to break enemy front.

I disagree. You get a lot more bang with the tough stuff. You can hit his average stuff with tough stuff and just skirmish the rest of his points. More chance of a victory than spreading your points thinly.

I don't say "Don't use tough guys". I meant to lower number of elite troops and raise number of average. Just to make an example, how can you make a selucid army with just 12 bases of cavalry, 8 of which of Cataphract?s The power of Cataphracts risk to be nullified by troops much less costly, it's enough an average Roman cavalry, deployed on a single rank so they can evade, to take out of action catafracts if they are alone.

Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. A slightly earlier take on the Ptolemaic list above (and yes, I did mean 55 BC originally. My apologies.)

4 x TC @ 35 points each
2 x 4 Xystophoroi (Armored Superior Drilled, Lancer Swordsmen) @ 68 points each
1 x 4 Light Horse (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Javelin Light Spear) @ 28 points
1 x 6 Cretan Archers (Unprotected Superior Drilled, Bowmen) @ 36 points
1 x 6 Thorakitai (Armored Average Drilled, Offensive Spearmen) @ 60 points
1 x 6 Romanized Infantry (Armored Average Drilled, Impact Foot Swordsmen) @ 60 points
1 x 8 Guard Phalangites (Protected Superior Drilled, Pikemen) @ 64 points
3 x 10 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled, Pikemen) @ 60 points
1 x 6 Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Javelin Light Spear) @ 24 points
1 x 6 Slingers (Average Unprotected Undrilled, Sling) @ 24 points
1 x 6 Thracian Foot (Protected Average Undrilled, Heavy Weapon) @ 42 points

Total: 794 points

-M