Slitherine

i am currently working on a hero-generating script to reduce the extreme randomness of hero generation for my MOD.
to do so i need to put the heros in 4 Categories. weak, mediocre and strong heros and a 4th category "to strong for player hands".
When finished the script will give the option at the start of a scenario to buy a hero for 1k,3k,5k prestige and then get a random hero out of that kategorie.

here are the categories i would put the heros in:

weak:
CombatLuck
Distraction
DoubleMassAttack
ExpertSupport
FastLearner
FastRetreat
FerociousDefense
FierceFighter
FirstAid
LearnsFromMistakes
NoRetreat
NoSurrender
Resilient
RiverAssault
SixthSense
SkilledRecon
SkilledSupport
SuperiorManeuver
TenaciousDefender
ThoroughPreparation
Unyielding
EntKiller3
CounterBattery
AimingAssistance
AggressiveCounterattack
Avenger
Exterminator
FearsomeReputation
FlagKiller

mediocre:
FieldRepairs
AimedShot
Butcher
CityFighter
CripplingBlow
DoubleSupport
Evasive
ExpertRecon
FastRebase
Liberator
Leadership
LowProfile
Readiness
Famous
TankKiller
ReducedSlots
EntKiller4
Survivor
DoubleMove
IgnoresZOC
PhasedMovement

strong:
ArtySupport
ATSupport
Camouflage
DoubleAttack
Envelopment
FastDeployment
HitAndRun
IgnoresEntrenchment
IncMaxOverstrength
LethalAttack
LightningAttack
MachineGun
Overrun
Provocator
Legendary
ShockTactics
StrikesFirst
Vigilant
ZeroSlots
NoRetaliation
OverwhelmingAttack
PreciseOptics
Scavenger

not4u:
Ambusher
OnTheRoll
Prudent
QuadripleGun

please let me know what u think.

sers,
Thomas

edit:
i added the script in the latest update(22.04.23) to the preludes campaign. please try to break and abuse it and let me know what u found.

***"Grondel"*** Your understanding of the "English-Language"... is really outstanding or"Very-Good". Yet!... there are some "Minor-Discrepancies" with a "Word" here and there... so i will correct!... please do not take offense.
Starting with.... oppinions... correction is... Opinion!... Opinions!.

Grondel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:50 pm i am currently working on a hero-generating script to reduce the extreme randomness of hero generation for my MOD.
to do so i need to put the heros in 4 Categories. weak, mediocre and strong heros and a 4th category[/b] "too strong for player hands".
When finished the script will give the option at the start of a scenario to buy a hero for 1k,3k,5k prestige and then get a random hero out of that kategorie.

here are the categories i would put the heros in:

not4u:= Too Strong
Ambusher
OnTheRoll
Prudent
QuadripleGun
Zealous Fanatic ... Someone who uses or employs "Accelerated Assault" as a method or "Modus Operandi"... [ defined as a distinct pattern or method of operation] ... meaning that you catch your opponent nearly completely unprepared and off-guard... such that so... you get to assault him 2 or 3 times in succession with much less detrimental impact to your assault-team!.

please let me know what u think.

sers,
Thomas

hmm i would delete following heros completly:
sixth sense, entkiller+2, river assault

isnt city fighter the same as vigilant ? or was it +5 on city hexes ?

i would move counterbattery--> medicore

and in the strong category are some skills that are way stronger than their brothers:

i.e. lightning attacks is by far stronger than entkiller4
ignoresent is far stronger than ent killer+4
hitandrun is weaker than strikes first, because u need a unit with high initiative to make use out of it

btw where is no retaliation ?


maybe (!) a 5th cat makes sense to split cat 3 in strong and very strong


considering not4u:
*sniff* my belloved prudent, one of the heros that make airborne infatry at least a little more useful hehe

Yeah, looks pretty good, and there are enough situationally-good heroes in both of the bottom two categories that I would deliberately try to roll for them from time to time

Edit: cool idea by the way. I hope you're able to get it to work-- this game is at its best when it forces you to make choices (this is why I always play with slow modernization eg), and this mechanic would be an interesting new choice to confront

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:57 pm hmm i would delete following heros completly:
sixth sense, entkiller+2, river assault

i removed entkiller +2 and move +3 and +4 down 1 category. i regularly use sixth sense on planes and river assault on certain maps.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:57 pm isnt city fighter the same as vigilant ? or was it +5 on city hexes ?

city fighter is +5 on city hexes, yes.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:57 pm hitandrun is weaker than strikes first, because u need a unit with high initiative to make use out of it

with hitandrun mostly any tank can attack infantry in close terrain without retaliation.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:57 pm btw where is no retaliation ?

is there now

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:57 pm maybe (!) a 5th cat makes sense to split cat 3 in strong and very strong

the selection box will look ugly with 4 selection possibilities in it.

sers,
Thomas

i sell sixth sense on sight like river assault. i know there is some use for both but i prefer the prestige.

river aussalts biggest issue is the lack of movement point cost entering the river hex, and well i work with high recon and nearly never send out my planes into the darkness
but thats my playstyle and only my opinion. its ok if both are in there.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:45 pm river aussalts biggest issue is the lack of movement point cost entering the river hex,...

it works on "bridges" too and on some maps attacking cities from a bridge makes a lot of things easier. other than that, river asssault is kinda handy on bridging units standing in rivers for quite some time.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:45 pm and well i work with high recon and nearly never send out my planes into the darkness

i put it on the recon plane going there first;)

sers,
Thomas

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:03 pm I hope you're able to get it to work...

working fine now with random traits and portraits. i will wait a week or two for more feedback here and then start adding it to the mod.

sers,
Thomas

Grondel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:16 pm

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:03 pm I hope you're able to get it to work...

working fine now with random traits and portraits. i will wait a week or two for more feedback here and then start adding it to the mod.

sers,
Thomas

Thinking about how it would integrate, given that the hardest part of a campaign series is generally the beginning, when your units dont have experience and you have no prestige buffer:

1. you dont seem to have included "famous" and "legendary"

2. It might be better to have the system only start working in 1941 or 1940 at the earliest. Because there is no way you can afford really any heroes, but especially the good ones that can really supercharge your early force, in 1939.

I would lower CounterBatteryFire by -1
and
Raise FastLearner by +1.

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:51 pm 1. you dont seem to have included "famous" and "legendary"

both present

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:51 pm 2. It might be better to have the system only start working in 1941 or 1940 at the earliest. Because there is no way you can afford really any heroes, but especially the good ones that can really supercharge your early force, in 1939.

currently testing and playing around. so far it seems fine to start in preludes with the script.
first scenario u get no hero, like before.
2nd u can afford 3k if u dare(on general diff.)
3rd has Feldwebel Schulz, so no random hero
4th u can afford 5k hero if u dare(on general diff.)

might need some tinkering in 39, but since 39 is receiving a complete remake anyways, that can be added to the list.

sers,
Thomas

Grondel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:27 am ... can really supercharge your early force, in 1939...

this is the whole point of the script

preventing:
"Oh, nice three zero slots in a row! i can field 3x 15 str 21 cm now, wuhu!"

as well as:
"wtf! 2x times ferocious defense and 3 x sixth sense? i´ll restart this campaign!"

Yes, those are extrem examples, but i guess u get what i want to tell u.

sers,
Thomas

thx for the input.

BarbarianHunter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:07 am I would lower CounterBatteryFire by -1

I´ll think about that.

BarbarianHunter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:07 am Raise FastLearner by +1.

This one is only good early game. once ur units have 3 stars+ it becomes less and less interesting. It still has effect until 5 stars, yes, but then it becomes useless, unless u are loosing units a lot and need to train new ones.

sers,
Thomas

Grondel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:35 am thx for the input.

BarbarianHunter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:07 am I would lower CounterBatteryFire by -1

I´ll think about that.

BarbarianHunter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:07 am Raise FastLearner by +1.

This one is only good early game. once ur units have 3 stars+ it becomes less and less interesting. It still has effect until 5 stars, yes, but then it becomes useless, unless u are loosing units a lot and need to train new ones.

sers,
Thomas

No problem, glad to help. I've had quite a lot of fun w/the mods .

For FastLearner I agree that it's not particularly useful for core units during standard play. I find it extremely useful for adding depth to the reserves in training missions or getting a replacement for a lost core unit up to speed.

Suggestion:
Category: not4u:= Too Strong
Stealth Infantry Specialization____Code Named: "Camouflage"
***Basically an "Invisible Soldier Unit, Brigade or something somewhat like Rommels Ghost Disvision.*** Yhis Unit or Group can only be seen by physical contact!.
Imagine what a terror this would be on the Game Map!.

Hi Grondel,

Heroes seem to be the weakest part of the game. Either you get to few good ones or too many. Your idea is fresh and needed.

I agree that starting out your system might be difficult to play. For example, in a new SCW campaign, a Zero Slots hero is huge early on to mitigate the slot requirement of the only true bunker buster available, the 203mm. Looking at your system, I think a Legendary hero bought early on would return great value over time.

I have created my own hero tier list, after using Tassadar's categories as a starting point. While some heroes are universally liked/disliked, there seems to be quite a bit of variation in how different players see certain heroes. Would you post instructions to allow players to make changes to your mod to suit their play styles?

charge62 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:22 pm Hi Grondel,

Heroes seem to be the weakest part of the game. Either you get to few good ones or too many. Your idea is fresh and needed.

I agree that starting out your system might be difficult to play. For example, in a new SCW campaign, a Zero Slots hero is huge early on to mitigate the slot requirement of the only true bunker buster available, the 203mm. Looking at your system, I think a Legendary hero bought early on would return great value over time.

I have created my own hero tier list, after using Tassadar's categories as a starting point. While some heroes are universally liked/disliked, there seems to be quite a bit of variation in how different players see certain heroes. Would you post instructions to allow players to make changes to your mod to suit their play styles?

thats fairly simple. each scenario has a LUA script attached. in there is the list of traits sorted by weak/mediocre/strong. if u don´t like how i put them u can just move them into another category.
sadly u will have to do that for each scenario since i wasn´t able to figure out how the LUA-library works in PC2 yet.
and evrytime i upload an update u will have to do that again.

sers,
Thomas

First Aid and especially Field Repairs do not deserve the "Weak" category - they are way too unique to be in it.

On the other hand, Famous and Legendary can be brought down a bit, since prestige becomes less of a thing as players get better and better.

Counter Battery as often mentioned by Edmon, is not too great since it is limited by range. Artillery that benefits form it, already has it, so getting many such heroes can be of very limited use.

The rest is mostly player preference, so seems fine as it is, but could be disputed both ways.

thx for ur input.

Tassadar wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:04 pm First Aid and especially Field Repairs do not deserve the "Weak" category - they are way too unique to be in it.

i thought long about those two. I agree that both are kind of unique, but they are only usefull on certain units and have limited use when u don´t take losses. On the right unit, in the right condition they are very helpfull. I´ll keep thinking about them.

Tassadar wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:04 pm On the other hand, Famous and Legendary can be brought down a bit, since prestige becomes less of a thing as players get better and better.

I even removed Legendary and famous from several of the unique heroes in the mod since i noticed how huge the prestige gain is from those in long scenarios. Even in a 20 round scenario (which is rather short) u gain 400 prestige per famous and 1000 prestige per Legendary hero. Since i am trying to give back some meaning to prestige those heros are on my watch list. I will observe how the new hero cost works out and reconsider them.

Tassadar wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:04 pm Counter Battery as often mentioned by Edmon, is not too great since it is limited by range. Artillery that benefits form it, already has it, so getting many such heroes can be of very limited use.

Maybe i´ll remove this one completely. it just went there with the other assist heros. When i get one he ends up on some random 15cm gun, which is prob the only use for it. I kinda feel cheated at when i get one.

sers,
Thomas

weak:
FastLearner ==> It is a "medium" hero. The longer the campaign is the harder it is to build up new units. This hero helps a lot, especially in training scenarios. And it helps units who get experience slowly.

FieldRepairs ==> at least medium hero. Only chance to keep prototypes in game when you run out of stock. It also saves you prestige. This hero gets stronger >1942...

FirstAid ==> useless hero, you cant compare it with field repairs imo. Infantry has more hp and is cheaper to repair.

NoSurrender ==> medium hero. Depends on the situation but can be extremly useful. Nothing is more annoying than losing a unit because of suppression.

Survivor ==> medium hero. You can get this as an awards, but as long as you dont abuse tactics to get these rewards this hero is very useful for some heroes. All my recons get a survivor if possible.

CounterBattery ==> maybe medium hero. It helps your guns to get awards and sometimes it is enough that the AI wont fire on you.

mediocre:
AggressiveCounterattack ==> I have never noticed a difference with this hero, for me almost useless
AimingAssistance ==> weak hero. Better in the early years of the war. You have to put the unit in the right location, can be annoying.

DoubleSupport ==> dangerous hero. Sometimes is using up your ammo to fast and your units will end up without protection. But mediocre is ok i guess.

FastRebase ==> weak hero. Most of you the time you wont use it or you can simply play around it.

FearsomeReputation ==> just weak
FlagKiller ==> weak/useless. Your units has to be in the right position at the right time. Only might work a few times in a scenario.

Leadership ==> weak

Readiness ==> depends on your playstyle, maybe even strong. Extremly good on fighters on infantry, only way to hold ground vs multiple inf.

EntKiller4 ==> weak. Often without any effect and only useful on some units.

strong:
ArtySupport ==> useful, but just medium.
ATSupport ==> a bit stronger that artysupport, but also just medium.
DoubleMove ==> medium. only useful for some units in some cases. No hero I like to get.
FastDeployment ==> medium
LightningAttack ==> not always necessary but very useful; just medium imo
PhasedMovement ==> medium; dont think you really need that on other units than recons
Legendary ==> prestige is always good, but just medium; wasted slot on your units who has to do the work
ZeroSlots ==> maybe not4u, should be restricted to superheroes. This hero can be like +10% more core slots, thats just to good. If you assign this hero you cant assign another hero. Is a limitation like this possible?


not4u:
OnTheRoll ==> why not? Could be interesting, I dont think it might be too strong.
Prudent ==> why not?