Slitherine

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:08 pm**

so with the Provocator hero why do I want to assign this to a unit .. seems .. its a great way to get a unit annihilated as they all attack it ???

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:18 pm**

Give the hero to a strong unit and put a weak unit next to it. The AI will attack the weak unit but has to fight against your strongest unit. An infantry unit might attack your tank in open fields, which is very good for you.
Of course the hero makes no sense if you dont have strong units, but you can combine it with support fire.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:22 pm**

gunny wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:08 pm so with the Provocator hero why do I want to assign this to a unit .. seems .. its a great way to get a unit annihilated as they all attack it ???

In addition to what Defiant said, there are other heroes that combo with it really well. First Strike or Readiness ensure that your entire unit's strength attacks the attacking unit before it gets a chance to attack you

I generally like to put a low-tier AT gun or 15cm next to a tank with Provocator. The AI loves to hit vulnerable AT and arty so it will attempt to attack it, but instead you get a support fire (support fire awards are somewhat hard to get past tier 1), and then the tank wrecks it.
A triangle of two at guns and a prov tank also works really well

One thing to be careful about is to make sure the Provocator unit has sufficient ammo

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:41 am**

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:18 pm Give the hero to a strong unit and put a weak unit next to it. The AI will attack the weak unit but has to fight against your strongest unit. An infantry unit might attack your tank in open fields, which is very good for you.
Of course the hero makes no sense if you dont have strong units, but you can combine it with support fire.

ok I think I got it and I think the AI has used this against me when I attack a unit I have to deal with some bohemeth of tank next to the unit I'm attcking and this tank unit shoots at me or something ..

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:41 am**

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:22 pm
gunny wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:08 pm so with the Provocator hero why do I want to assign this to a unit .. seems .. its a great way to get a unit annihilated as they all attack it ???
In addition to what Defiant said, there are other heroes that combo with it really well. First Strike or Readiness ensure that your entire unit's strength attacks the attacking unit before it gets a chance to attack you

I generally like to put a low-tier AT gun or 15cm next to a tank with Provocator. The AI loves to hit vulnerable AT and arty so it will attempt to attack it, but instead you get a support fire (support fire awards are somewhat hard to get past tier 1), and then the tank wrecks it.
A triangle of two at guns and a prov tank also works really well

One thing to be careful about is to make sure the Provocator unit has sufficient ammo

ok I think I got it and I think the AI has used this against me when I attack a unit I have to deal with some bohemeth of tank next to the unit I'm attcking and this tank unit shoots at me or something ..

so not I will use it woo hooo

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2023 2:09 am**

Provocator!... OK!... so your 'Enemies' are goaded-enticed or lured into attacking 'YOU' first!.:
Now!... for a slight-twist!...

Provocateur noun]
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/provocateur
AGENT PROVOCATEUR one who provokes ___ Inciting another into Action!.

Did you know?
In "provocateur," a word borrowed directly from French, one sees the English verb "provoke." Both "provoke" and "provocateur" derive from Latin-Provocare, meaning "to call forth."

Why do we say "provocateur" for one who incites another to action, instead of simply "provoker"? Perhaps it's because of "agent provocateur," a term of French origin that literally means "provoking agent."

Both "agent provocateur" and the shortened "provocateur" can refer to someone (such as an undercover police officer or a political operative) whose job is to incite people to break the law so that they can be arrested, but only "provocateur" is used in English with the more general sense of "one who provokes."

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:27 am**

Pardon if I missed it, but Provoke with Vigilant is extremely awesome. Put it on a tank, put the tank in rough terrain at the front, watch infantry melt as they attack it.

Even better when in combo with an AT or Art/AT that has camouflage on it.

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:16 pm**

gunny wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:08 pm so with the Provocator hero why do I want to assign this to a unit .. seems .. its a great way to get a unit annihilated as they all attack it ???

Provocateur is actually A-tier.

You use it to draw fire away from weaker units and onto you high defense units that are backed by arty/AT.

It's greatly helped by the fact that the AI can't account for this hero when doing combat calculations...

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:40 pm**

thanks it makes sense now

Posted: **Tue May 30, 2023 7:11 am**

I would have thought they'd be ideal on fighter planes tbh. Escort your bombers, watch as enemy planes unintentionally drop into a fighter vs fighter combat.

Though, I can't remember if that means they skip the free interception fire?

Posted: **Tue May 30, 2023 9:41 am**

RVallant wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:11 am I would have thought they'd be ideal on fighter planes tbh. Escort your bombers, watch as enemy planes unintentionally drop into a fighter vs fighter combat.

Though, I can't remember if that means they skip the free interception fire?

Yes because Provocator Fighter forces enemy to attack this unit, but AI usually won't try to attack an escorted bomber in first place unless you are using utter garbage fighters as escorts, in which case you will take concertrated fire anyway.
The correct setup is Provocator bomber with fighter escorts, AI are more willing to deal with this "escort" first but then get tricked into attacking the bomber, then take support fire from your fighter(s) adjacent to it. You might want some defensive heros on your bait bomber in that case though, like using a Readiness fighter-bomber which has decent firepower but low Initiative.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 11:01 am**

VirgilInTheSKY wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 9:41 am Yes because Provocator Fighter forces enemy to attack this unit, but AI usually won't try to attack an escorted bomber in first place unless you are using utter garbage fighters as escorts, in which case you will take concertrated fire anyway.

Really? Most of the time the AI is attacking my bombers first, they dont care about escorts. Sometimes my fighter are running out of ammunitions, since the AI is rather wasting everything to get one bomber down instead of fighting my escorts, which would be far more efficient. So imo provocator is waste in the air since the AI is already stupid enough to do the wrong thing.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 12:16 pm**

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 11:01 am
VirgilInTheSKY wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 9:41 am Yes because Provocator Fighter forces enemy to attack this unit, but AI usually won't try to attack an escorted bomber in first place unless you are using utter garbage fighters as escorts, in which case you will take concertrated fire anyway.
Really? Most of the time the AI is attacking my bombers first, they dont care about escorts. Sometimes my fighter are running out of ammunitions, since the AI is rather wasting everything to get one bomber down instead of fighting my escorts, which would be far more efficient. So imo provocator is waste in the air since the AI is already stupid enough to do the wrong thing.

You are not using things like Camouflage on your fighter escorts, are you? That sounds quite weird, AI usually would do everything it need to avoid taking support fire.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 12:45 pm**

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 11:01 am Really? Most of the time the AI is attacking my bombers first, they dont care about escorts.

That is very weird behaviour that i have never experienced. what heros are on ur fighters? what general traits are u using?

sers,
Thomas

Posted: **Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:53 pm**

Nothing that would have a signifikant influence on the behaviour. I got galland and bär on my fighters, sometimes even rapidfire and AI does not care.Its not like my fighters are too strong to get attacked, a 15 unit spitfire can easily deal with my 10 unit 109-F.

I am always playing DvG so the AI might think its better to lose 5-6 fighterunits and kill 2-3 bombers in exchange?
But afair it was always like that, I send one of my fighters out and put 2-3 bombers at the corners and AI will attack these planes like crazy.

Posted: **Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:15 pm**

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:53 pm Nothing that would have a signifikant influence on the behaviour. I got galland and bär on my fighters, sometimes even rapidfire and AI does not care.Its not like my fighters are too strong to get attacked, a 15 unit spitfire can easily deal with my 10 unit 109-F.

I am always playing DvG so the AI might think its better to lose 5-6 fighterunits and kill 2-3 bombers in exchange?
But afair it was always like that, I send one of my fighters out and put 2-3 bombers at the corners and AI will attack these planes like crazy.

Sounds like high Aggressiveness setting making AI willing to take the loss, plus that DvG making them kind of capable of doing that. I never played DvG, so with strength on par they never attacked my bombers unless I let them get out alone or they have things like Lightening Attack to ignore the escort.

Posted: **Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:32 pm**

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:53 pm ---->my 10 unit 109-F.<-----

this is probs the explanation. without looking them up my guess is that ur bomber is significantly more expensive than this fighter.
AI considers it´s attack by prestige destroyed. the more expensive the unit the more losses it is willing to take.
If killing sone of ur bombers destroys more prestige than the entire fighter would cost(i am exagerating to make the point) it will go for the bomber. since i tend to use the more expensive fighter planes i never experienced this behaviour.

sers,
thomas

Posted: **Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:54 pm**

VirgilInTheSKY wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:15 pm I never played DvG,

DvG alters the AI behaviour a lot!
sometimes this is kinda broken an the AI is ok with attacks and losses it would never do without DvG and acts like a angry pitbull on speed, but normally DvG means way less "stalemates" in a mission if you use to protect your frontline properly.

The only other option to raise AI activity that much without modding is "slow reaction"....but thats kinda unfun

Posted: **Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:28 pm**

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:54 pm "slow reaction"....but thats kinda unfun

Slow reaction is only for very "special" ppl

sers,
Thomas

Posted: **Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:18 am**

Grondel wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:32 pm
DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:53 pm ---->my 10 unit 109-F.<-----
since i tend to use the more expensive fighter planes i never experienced this behaviour.

That is not possible, right now I was talking about 1939/1940, so you have to compare 109F and Stuka-R or Ju88. I am not sure but I have the feeling there is not much difference prestige wise.
But I also think there is some crazy prestige calculation in the background. The british would give up london, just to take out my Neubaufahrzeug or 88er AA gun

Must the the reason AI never attacks scout planes, if there is anything else it could do.
Afair the behaviour was the same when I played without DvG. That feature was the first one that was confusing me in this game, since it makes no sense and I never noticed that in any panzergeneral game before.

Slitherine

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