Slitherine

Hello, everyone -

Have been a lurker for a while now, but I figured I'd register and get in on the discussion. First, let me say I'm very happy with FOG. It's the first ancient ruleset in a very long time that has really excited me, so well done to the designers!

Here's what I'm working on. I have several potential opponents in different periods, but my primary opponent is shooting for Late Republican Romans. I would like very much to do a Pontic Army for the period, but I'm new to the system, and I keep waffling about whether it's the best army to start with for facing an army as tough as the LRR. I was hoping that I might get some feedback on the following list. Does this seem reasonable?

Pontic Army @ 800 Points

1 x Field Commander C-in-C (Mithridates) @ 50 points
2 x Troop Commanders @ 35 points each
1 x Allied Field Commander (Armenian) @ 40 points
2 x 4 Pontic Heavy Cavalry BGs @ 64 points each
1 x 4 Pontic Light Horse BG @ 28 points
1 x 4 Armenian Cataphract BG @ 72 points
1 x 4 Armenian Horse Archer BG @ 32 points
1 x 6 Javelinmen BG @ 24 points
1 x 8 Archer BG @ 40 points
1 x 6 Thureophoroi BG @ 48 points
4 x 6 Imitation Legionary BG @ 48 points each
2 x 2 Scythed Chariot BG @ 30 points each

Total: 784 points
-M.

16 points short is a good chunk you can get an extra BG for that!!!

It would probably be more useful to let us know what the troops are equipped with so we don't have to look in the books or guess!

For instance Heavy Cavalry - 64 points - I presume these are undrilled, Armoured, Light Spear, Sword? But I could be wrong as I can't be bothered to look up the army list

I'd drop both the C-in-C and the ally to TC as you can use the 30 points elsewhere. The Thureophoroi and Legionnaries I'd have in BGs of 8 as they are protected and in 6s they are vulnerable to shooting. It's a lot harder to get three instead of two hits to make you take a cohesion test. You also benefit more from attached TCs when in combat.

To be honest, a LRR will probably massacre most Pontic armies no matter how clever the army design unless your opponent agrees not to take any superior legionnaries.

Julian

dave_r wrote:16 points short is a good chunk you can get an extra BG for that!!!

Not in the Pontic list IIRC. You could make the Pontic LH 6 bases though as that'd cost 14 points.

Personally I prefer the earlier version with pikemen to the later one with fake legionarii - there are a couple of Pontic lists on my website.

Mithras wrote:Pontic Army @ 800 Points

1 x Field Commander C-in-C (Mithridates) @ 50 points
2 x Troop Commanders @ 35 points each
1 x Allied Field Commander (Armenian) @ 40 points
2 x 4 Pontic Heavy Cavalry BGs @ 64 points each
1 x 4 Pontic Light Horse BG @ 28 points
1 x 4 Armenian Cataphract BG @ 72 points
1 x 4 Armenian Horse Archer BG @ 32 points
1 x 6 Javelinmen BG @ 24 points
1 x 8 Archer BG @ 40 points
1 x 6 Thureophoroi BG @ 48 points
4 x 6 Imitation Legionary BG @ 48 points each
2 x 2 Scythed Chariot BG @ 30 points each

Total: 784 points
-M.

Fighting LRR you are best to concentrate on fighting his weaknesses, which are his cavalry and light troops normally. Your own Legio will get quickly crushed IMO. But your mounted will be better, this is where you should concentrate your points.

I too would drop Mithridates to a TC. The Armenian FC could be valuable if you contemplated using the allied contingent for a flank march, otherwise no point really. I personally wouldn't bother with the scythed chariot "gimmick", I have found them useful and effective very rarely. I think I would have exactly the mounted you have chosen and in those sizes of BG. Two BGs of LF seems about right but I think a pike armed strike force would be better. With any points saved/left over I would consider another bg of LH or MF.

Martin

philqw78 wrote:

Mithras wrote:Pontic Army @ 800 Points

1 x Field Commander C-in-C (Mithridates) @ 50 points
2 x Troop Commanders @ 35 points each
1 x Allied Field Commander (Armenian) @ 40 points
2 x 4 Pontic Heavy Cavalry BGs @ 64 points each
1 x 4 Pontic Light Horse BG @ 28 points
1 x 4 Armenian Cataphract BG @ 72 points
1 x 4 Armenian Horse Archer BG @ 32 points
1 x 6 Javelinmen BG @ 24 points
1 x 8 Archer BG @ 40 points
1 x 6 Thureophoroi BG @ 48 points
4 x 6 Imitation Legionary BG @ 48 points each
2 x 2 Scythed Chariot BG @ 30 points each

Total: 784 points
-M.

Fighting LRR you are best to concentrate on fighting his weaknesses, which are his cavalry and light troops normally. Your own Legio will get quickly crushed IMO. But your mounted will be better, this is where you should concentrate your points.

IMO the scythed chariots are not that good (unmanovreable and not that effective against lots of troops), you could make better use of the 60 pts plus the 16 unused ones.

Spike

Found a Pontic I used from the period where there are no pikemen. Was for a comp where LRR were a possibilty.

3 x Pontic TC
2 x 4 Pontic Heavy Cavalry
1 x 4 Pontic Light Cavalry
1 x 4 Skythian Cavalry - Cv not LH
1 x 6 Sarmatian Cavalry
1 x 6 LF Javelinmen
1 x 6 LF Archers
1 x 6 LF Slingers
1 x 8 Thyreophoroi
1 x 8 Fake Legionarii
1 x Armanian TC
1 x 6 Armenian Catafracts
2 x 4 Armenian Horse Archers


Make the most of its mobility.

Thanks, all, for the advice. So, the general consensus, at least, is that the Pike will be more effective against Superior Legion? Am I right in thinking that it might be worth maximizing them out to blocks of 12?

Here's what I've got after taking your advice into account:

Pontic Army, circa 88 BC.

C-in-C (Field Commander) x 1 @ 50 points
Sub-Commander x 2 @ 35 points each
2 x 4 Pontic Heavy Cavalry (Armored Superior Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen) @ 64 points each
1 x 4 Pontic Light Horse (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear) @ 28 points
1 x 6 Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Infantry, Javelins, Light Spear) @ 24 points
1 x 6 Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled Light Foot, Bow) @ 30 points
1 x 6 Thureophoroi (Protected Average Drilled Medium Foot, Offensive Spearmen) @ 48 points
2 x 12 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled Heavy Foot, Pikemen) @ 72 points each
1 x 6 Thracians (Protected Average Undrilled Medium Foot, Heavy Weapons) @ 42 points

Armenian Ally General (Troop Commander) x 1 @ 35 points
1 x 4 Armenian Cataphracts (Heavily Armored Superior Undrilled Lancers, Swordsmen) @ 72 points
2 x 4 Armenian Light Horse (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Bow) @ 32 points

2 x 2 Scythed Chariots @ 30 points each

Total: 795 points

Thoughts?

-Mithras

Like this more. The pike will stand up better to the Roman legio than your fakes. The Thracians and Theurophoroi can dominate a piece of terrain where necessary. Don't split them to dominate 2 pieces as legio are quite good in terrain as well. You should win the skirmish battle and then be able to get troops where you need them.

philqw78 wrote:Like this more. The pike will stand up better to the Roman legio than your fakes. The Thracians and Theurophoroi can dominate a piece of terrain where necessary. Don't split them to dominate 2 pieces as legio are quite good in terrain as well. You should win the skirmish battle and then be able to get troops where you need them.

Glad you like it, Phil. Thanks for the tip on the terrain. I realize that the Scythed Chariots are a bit gimmicky, and I may end up replacing them with something else, but I thought they'd be fun to play with, and Mithridates was fairly obsessed with them.

-Mithras

True, but look what happened to him.

My preference is pike in 8's for better flexibility and movement.
They dont want to be disrupted. Better odds having 3 units rather than 2.

Its not as though they will be shot at much with LF screening them.

I used scythed chariots with my L.A.P., and I found that they work better in 4´s, ´cause two isolated are not as harmful as expected, and you can´t make a battleline with those two BG in order to make a double move. So, I deploy them last and in a BG of 4, followed by some cavalry to finish the job.

Well, if you give up on thoose Scythed Chariots I would consider upgrading the Cats to a 1X6 and one of the Cav BG's to a 1X6 Sarmation lancer. That is two strong Cav battlegroups that will work well with the Pike. Really not a bad army and I'm thinking about morphing my seleucids. I also like the Dacian Battlegroup instead of the thracians....same price I think - more vulnerable to shooting but superior and better in combat.

Scrumpy wrote:True, but look what happened to him.

He was shafted by his son and son-in-law but no other leader, from my memory, kept the Romans at bay like he did.

Armenian Ally General (Troop Commander) x 1 @ 35 points

An ally general is 10 points cheaper - hence a TC only costs 25 points

So, the general consensus, at least, is that the Pike will be more effective against Superior Legion? Am I right in thinking that it might be worth maximizing them out to blocks of 12?

Pike are better against the Legions. Although personally I would go for 10's. Against Romans you are going to lose bases and if you have no "spares" the Legionaires will slaughter the phalanx once they have taken a couple of bases off.

Cataphracts are good against Romans so I would increase the allied Armenians to a six. Undrilled Cataphracts are much better in sixes anyway.

Here's the latest version of the Pontic list I've been working on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 x CinC (TC) @ 35 points
2 x Sub-Commanders (TC) @ 35 points each
2 x 4 Pontic Heavy Cavalry (Armored Superior Undrilled, Light Spear Swordsmen) @ 64 points each
1 x 4 Pontic Light Horse (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Javelin & Light Spear) @ 28 points
1 x 4 Javelinmen (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Javelin and Light Spear Light Foot) @ 16 points
1 x 4 Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Bow Light Foot) @ 20 points
1 x Thureophoroi (Protected Average Drilled, Offensive Spearmen Medium Foot) @ 32 points
1 x Bastarnae (Unprotected Superior Drilled, Heavy Weapon Medium Foot) @ 27 points
3 x 10 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled, Pikemen Heavy Foot) @ 60 points
1 x 4 Scythed Chariots @ 60 points

Armenian Ally General (TC) @ 25 points
1 x 6 Cataphracts (Heavily Armored Superior Undrilled, Lancer Swordsmen) @ 108 points
2 x 4 Horse Archers (Unprotected Average Undrilled, Bow Light Horse) @ 32 points each

Approximately 794 points

-M.

Mithras wrote: 3 x 10 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled, Pikemen Heavy Foot) @ 60 points

24 pike maximum IIRC.

nikgaukroger wrote:

Mithras wrote: 3 x 10 Phalangites (Protected Average Drilled, Pikemen Heavy Foot) @ 60 points

24 pike maximum IIRC.

Thanks for the correction, Nik. Didn't catch it first time through.

-M.