Slitherine

I have a feeling this might be common question, or it might be something I made up.

A BG gets charged from a 45 degree angle. NOT a flank charge.

one charging element contacts a file's front corner. so far, so good - this is a 2 dice vs 2 dice impact fight.

however another element of the charging BG steps forward such that it contacts the rear element of that same file on its flank edge.

my question

does that steped forward contact count, making it a 4 dice vs 2 dice impact fight?

or is it a 4 dice vs 4 dice impact fight?

or does the steped forward contact not count at all, because that file has been already hit?

does any of ths change if the rear element is support shooting?

stefoid wrote:I have a feeling this might be common question, or it might be something I made up.

A BG gets charged from a 45 degree angle. NOT a flank charge.

one charging element contacts a file's front corner. so far, so good - this is a 2 dice vs 2 dice impact fight.

however another element of the charging BG steps forward such that it contacts the rear element of that same file on its flank edge.

my question

does that steped forward contact count, making it a 4 dice vs 2 dice impact fight?

or is it a 4 dice vs 4 dice impact fight?

or does the steped forward contact not count at all, because that file has been already hit?

does any of ths change if the rear element is support shooting?

you can only have one base fighting one base in impact. No overlaps and no extra bases in... so the unit coulnd't step forward.
Ian

Sorry Daisho I believe you are wrong. If the second charging base contacts a different base then you fight with 2 bases against 2 bases, i.e probably 4 die versus 4 die. The factors for the target are factors of the front rank base. The second base MUST step forward into contact if it fulfills all the criteria for doing so.
As this is not a flank charge in the manouver phase the chargers move to conform to the front rank base of the target.
Andre

Each pair of opposing bases in contact roll dice. If the stepped forward base had hit a base already contacted dice would not be rolled, since it hit a different base the stepped forward and the contacted base both roll dice as if hit at the front of the file. so 4 v 4 dice at POA's as if a frontal contact.

Stepping forwards is compulsary so if you charge at an angle you will step forwards.

If an impact has differing numbers of bases in contact then the side with the most bases in contact chooses which of their bases fight.

Both sides always fight with the same number of bases.

As recently discussed on another thread, the contact on the second rank base is exactly as if the contact was on the front rank base. For example, if there is a bow base behind a spear base, the factors are worked out as if two spear bases, each with a bow base behind were contacted. No advantage is gained from contacting the side of a rear base, except to have an extra set of dice rolled by each side. This prevents anyone looking to gain from angled charges such as this.

After impact, how would the chargers shift to conform (assuming space permits). My guess is that the base that hit the corner of the front rank base would shift to conform to the corner base frontally. But this does seem a little odd in that it would then leave fewer bases in contact (one vs two) than fought in impact. With overlaps there would still be the same number of files fighting so this may still have the right effect. I guess it does mean that the angled charge does give the charger a good way to maximize the number of bases in impact against a larger opponent without ending up figthing more opposing bases in melee due to being overlapped.

Chris

batesmotel wrote:After impact, how would the chargers shift to conform (assuming space permits). My guess is that the base that hit the corner of the front rank base would shift to conform to the corner base frontally. But this does seem a little odd in that it would then leave fewer bases in contact (one vs two) than fought in impact. With overlaps there would still be the same number of files fighting so this may still have the right effect. I guess it does mean that the angled charge does give the charger a good way to maximize the number of bases in impact against a larger opponent without ending up figthing more opposing bases in melee due to being overlapped.

Chris

The chargers will indeed conform back to frontal contact with an overlap.

The charged BG will then have the option of feeding in more bases so it rarely makes much difference.

I like your response, Hammy but doesn't it disagree with the lower diagram on p72 where the charging file that contacted the 2nd rank of the target's right hand file is shown lining up on the flank edge of the target BG and still in contact with the 2nd rank of the target's end file?

Terry G.

TERRYFROMSPOKANE wrote:I like your response, Hammy but doesn't it disagree with the lower diagram on p72 where the charging file that contacted the 2nd rank of the target's right hand file is shown lining up on the flank edge of the target BG and still in contact with the 2nd rank of the target's end file?

Terry G.

Hmm, you'r right. That is not the way I have played this but it would appear that while nice and tidy there is a subtle difference. I am not sure if conforming stepped forwards would make much of a difference but I live and learn.

Good spot.

I like your response, Hammy but doesn't it disagree with the lower diagram on p72 where the charging file that contacted the 2nd rank of the target's right hand file is shown lining up on the flank edge of the target BG and still in contact with the 2nd rank of the target's end file?

You're not the first person to miss this Hammy - it's regularly overlooked as players tend to want to conform.

Pete

So what would then happen in the event of a severe charge angle against pike striking the rearmost base. The conform stepped froward could leave the front base of the chargers not in contact with the side of of the front base of the charged, therefore now not counting as an overlap?

Conform as best you can?

Pete

petedalby wrote:Conform as best you can?

Pete

While I wold like this, don't the rules suggest you either confom fully or not at all?

Each base in contact will move by the minimum distance to a valid full frontal contact or to a valid overlap. So the base hitting the rear rank enemy base will pivot and then slide so that it is in overlap, maintaining at least corner to corner contact with the rest of its BG. If that is impossible then the BG will fight unconformed.

Each base in contact will move by the minimum distance to a valid full frontal contact or to a valid overlap. So the base hitting the rear rank enemy base will pivot and then slide so that it is in overlap, maintaining at least corner to corner contact with the rest of its BG. If that is impossible then the BG will fight unconformed.

That's a fuller description of 'Conform as best as you can'

Thanks Gozerius

Pete

You all seem to be there now.

Indeed you conform the files by the minimum to get to lined-up or an overlap as long s there is space to do so (and you shift your own troops to make toom), and don't move but fight as if you had if there isn't room.

On Rogers points, the very reason we have made all side edge contacts as if on the front is to avoid cheese. You are not far enough round to be a real flank threat bearing in mind:
1) the Bg has several units in it - it is not a rigid set of 4 bases
2) the edge ones would be reacting in real time whereas we gamers are limited to te abstraction of alternate moves

All you are getting as a benefit is 4 vs 4 which gives more even results than 2 vs 2, and can get you 4 hits of course. So in practice if you are on a + or want to try to get more hits to affect CTs its worth going for more dice if you can; but we don't want it fought as anything but a normal frontal combat.

The troops are not where the metal figures are precisely! hope that helps.

Si