Slitherine

The Syrian spearmen in the Syro-Canaanite lists are pretty mean-looking hombres - they look like a cross of Genghis Khan and "Sons of Anarchy" characters, and you know they have to be secure in their masculinity to wear those muumuus:



But when you dig deeper, the bad-assedness (is that a word?) starts fading fast:



No shields, no helmets, nothing but the muumuus for protection.

Medium foot (so -1 to CT in the open vs. mounted units or heavy foot), but unmanueverable and a large artillery target.

Defensive spearmen, so no POA when charging anything other than enemy defensive spearmen.

At least they're "Average" - but with these qualities, are they really worth 40 points?

Perhaps they could at least be a bit cheaper, or become "Light Spear" or "Offensive Spear"?

What do you all think?

You're wright, and they can be simultaneasly offensive spearmen and a bit cheaper.

P.s.: Sammy Hagar says the opposite in Van Halen.

ray552 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:33 am

Large artillery target is irrelevant, there is no artillery in timeline.

Defensive Spearmen makes them much cheaper than equivalent Offensive Spearmen. Lack of armor makes them vulnerable to shooting, yes. Large unit size does make them immune to the loss of Combat Strength Modifier that casualties from missile fire or melee would cause until they have lost 33% of their men.

Steady Def Spears also halve infantry Swordsmen POAs - so in a melee against say, Protected Light Spear/Swordsmen, they are up 25POA and will likely rapidly gain Combat Strength Modifier as the melee continues.

So, not a good unit, but not bad. Keep in mind your standard Protected Def Spears are 36pts, including the ones in this time period which are only 85% Def Spears. Finally, an equivalent unit of Offensive Spearmen would cost 47pts, and they are no worse than equivalent Offensive Spearmen at facing off against Heavy Chariots, as even Offensive Spearmen lose all Impact when charging Heavy Chariots in Open.

So, have them face off against a more expensive unit of Swordsmen, and the enemy can either waste points in the staring contest or charge in, allowing you to use your discounted defensive impact. Medium Foot is neither good or bad - it's bad in open terrain, but good in rough.

@ Telesino: the Van Halen reference.

@ SB: Excellent points - so the best use of these units would be to put them in rough or difficult terrain to block avenues of approach (especially against non-bow-armed chariots), and screen them with skirmishers or have massed archers to back them up?

And use the points saved for better offensive units to use elsewhere, just like regular defensive spearmen.

SnuggleBunnies "Large unit size does make them immune to the loss of Combat Strength Modifier that casualties from missile fire or melee would cause until they have lost 33% of their men."

Maybe not so bad in defense, on attack they are a slightly better rabble.

"So, have them face off against a more expensive unit of Swordsmen, and the enemy can either waste points in the staring contest or charge in, allowing you to use your discounted defensive impact."
On attacking them: I think simply to never charge a similar formation in front, maybe on the flanks;
the best thing is firing at them with light infantry and horse archers and after this a charge.

ray552 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:59 pm @ SB: Excellent points - so the best use of these units would be to put them in rough or difficult terrain to block avenues of approach (especially against non-bow-armed chariots), and screen them with skirmishers or have massed archers to back them up?

Yes, massed archers would be a good complement - if your opponent spends time trying to disrupt the spears they will pay a heavy price from the archers. Again, not saying it's a great unit, but I would not call them Abid al Shira levels of bad.

Telesino wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:29 pm Maybe not so bad in defense, on attack they are a slightly better rabble.

Much much better in fact. Rabble are lower quality, and don't get a melee POA. These guys get 100 melee POA, and halve infantry swordsmen POAs, entirely negate cavalry swordsmen POAs, and can charge other Defensive Spears safely.

On attacking them: I think simply to never charge a similar formation in front, maybe on the flanks;
the best thing is firing at them with light infantry and horse archers and after this a charge.

Of course, but you can say that about any unit in the game - against pikemen, I think never fight them in open with infantry. Against Medium Impact Foot, just bring lancers or elephants. Against massed archers, just bring medium foot light spear sword spam. An opponent who knows what they're doing will try to force you into a situation where you either have to charge them, or get shot at, or have a high value unit doing nothing, or choose between shooting them and getting mowed down by their supporting missiles.

The Egyptian Spearmen from Biblical I don’t like but that is because they are below average quality. At least these guys are average quality. Quality is everything in this game.

SimonLancaster wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:16 am The Egyptian Spearmen from Biblical I don’t like but that is because they are below average quality. At least these guys are average quality. Quality is everything in this game.

I could not disagree more! Egyptian Spearmen are a fantastic value unit.

Sure, Below Average theoretically means worse cohesion, and they lack the +1 for Average and higher HF. But, they don't get the -1 that MF get for losing to HF or cav in Open.

More importantly, they are 30 points (=to Irregular Foot)! For that, you get a unit that is more resistant to Heavy Chariot charges than the 36pt Light Spear Sword MF that are ubiquitous in the era:

Superior Chariot Charging Average Light Spear is 150 Chariot + 50 Superior vs 100 Light Spear, up 100
Superior Chariot Charging Egyptian Spearmen is 100 Chariot + 50 Superior vs 100 Defensive Spear - 12 Below Average = up 62

Finally, in melee Egyptian Spearmen will likely win against those 36pt units that are so common, being up 38POA if Steady. Sure, they're bad at attacking, but who cares - at that price you are profiting from a standoff, and the Massed Archer support probably makes such a standoff a bad idea for your opponent.

They do not do well against Armored Hoplites it's true, being down 37 in melee, but again the 36 pt LSS units are down 75.

So an excellent buy. I put the Sassanid Levy Spearmen in the same category of being great for their price. These sorts of units fare less well in Medieval because Knight Smash, but they are well worth bringing, often in substantial numbers, in Ancients.

In theory they are a good value unit. I just think that being below average quality is a big no-no (at least for me). Any kind of cohesion check from missile fire, impact/melee or units breaking around you and there is a big chance of a disruption.

Of course, this wouldn’t stop me using up some points and bringing a few along as support. Maybe we would agree on that and in the end select around the same number in practice. However, I wouldn’t like to bring more than about three to the battlefield.

SimonLancaster wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:39 pm In theory they are a good value unit. I just think that being below average quality is a big no-no (at least for me). Any kind of cohesion check from missile fire, impact/melee or units breaking around you and there is a big chance of a disruption.

Of course, this wouldn’t stop me using up some points and bringing a few along as support. Maybe we would agree on that and in the end select around the same number in practice. However, I wouldn’t like to bring more than about three to the battlefield.

As a nerd I went through the 18 videos in which I fielded Egyptians on my channel. I fielded as few as the minimum, 2, and as many as 9 in a few matches. It really depended on the terrain and opposing army list, and thus the sort of battle I was anticipating. The average was 3.61.