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Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:32 am
by rbodleyscott
By special request, we will be adding Genoese army lists in the next update.
The period before 1320 is covered by the Italian (Guelf) lists, so the lists will cover 1320-1399, 1400-1449 and 1450-1475 (when the colonies in Crimea were taken by the Ottoman Turks).
Here is the proposed intro:
"By 1320 the Republic of Genoa ruled most of Liguria, and an overseas trading empire with colonies in Corsica, Sardinia, the Crimea and the Aegean, as well as a quarter of Constantinople. It aggressively competed with and was sometimes at open war with Venice. In the later 15th century, Genoa itself was variously controlled by France or Milan, and its eastern colonies fell to the Ottoman Turks. While most of its wars were primarily naval, it did occasionally field armies on land, such as in the Genoese-Mongol wars in the Crimea."
The 1320-1399 AD list can have Hungarian allies. (War of Chioggia)
The 1400-1449 and 1450-1475 lists can have Tatar (Golden Horde or Crimean Khanate) allies. (Genoese-Mongol Wars)
Note that the pre-Dismounted men-at-arms are the smaller sized units. (Same as you get when you dismount the mounted ones)
Revised army lists in lower post in thread.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:40 am
by Paul59
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:32 am
By special request, we will be adding Genoese army lists in the next update.
The period before 1320 is covered by the Italian (Guelf) lists, so the lists will cover 1320-1399, 1400-1449 and 1450-1475 (when the colonies in Crimea were taken by the Ottoman Turks).
Here is the proposed intro:
"By 1320 the Republic of Genoa ruled most of Liguria, and an overseas trading empire with colonies in Corsica, Sardinia, the Crimea and the Aegean, as well as a quarter of Constantinople. It aggressively competed with and was sometimes at open war with Venice. In the later 15th century, Genoa itself was variously controlled by France or Milan, and its eastern colonies fell to the Ottoman Turks. While most of its wars were primarily naval, it did occasionally field armies on land, such as in the Genoese-Mongol wars in the Crimea."
The 1320-1399 AD list can have Hungarian allies. (War of Chioggia)
The 1400-1449 and 1450-1475 lists can have Tatar (Golden Horde or Crimean Khanate) allies. (Genoese-Mongol Wars)
Note that the pre-Dismounted men-at-arms are the smaller sized units. (Same as you get when you dismount the mounted ones)
Genoese 1320-1399 AD.jpg
Genoese 1400-1449 AD.jpg
Genoese 1450-1475 AD.jpg
What about their banner? I would suggest just to use the existing Crusader banner, or are you going to get a new banner made?
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:45 am
by Athos1660
Nice addition !
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:52 am
by rbodleyscott
They don't need a new banner. The flag of Genoa is a red cross on a white background - i.e. the same as the existing Guelf banner.
- Genoese.jpg (315.71 KiB) Viewed 1853 times
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:51 pm
by Meyre
How about Billmen also available in 1320-1399 list and take the place of Defensive Spearmen? 0/2 or 0/3 would be reasonable.
Plate armour has become more and more popular in the 14th century. A wealthy city state like Genoa has no reason not to arm their soldiers from head to toe.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:37 pm
by Athos1660
Meyre wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:51 pm
How about Billmen also available in 1320-1399 list and take the place of Defensive Spearmen? 0/2 or 0/3 would be reasonable.
Plate armour has become more and more popular in the 14th century. A wealthy city state like Genoa has no reason not to arm their soldiers from head to toe.
It may be less a matter of cost of the armament than a matter of capabilities of the Genoese troops, their training, skills ; historicity/plausibility.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:58 pm
by rbodleyscott
Meyre wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:51 pm
How about Billmen also available in 1320-1399 list and take the place of Defensive Spearmen? 0/2 or 0/3 would be reasonable.
I would love to have included billmen in the 1320-1399 list, but have seen no evidence of billmen in Italian armies prior to 1400. Conversely, there is evidence of Spearmen and Pavisiers in that period.
Plate armour has become more and more popular in the 14th century. A wealthy city state like Genoa has no reason not to arm their soldiers from head to toe.
Apart from the obvious mobility issues and dangers in shipboard fighting. Sometimes less armour is better.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:38 pm
by rbodleyscott
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:41 pm
by rbodleyscott
I will also add Oarsmen to the Venetian Colonial list.
- Venetian Colonial.jpg (96.13 KiB) Viewed 1785 times
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:38 pm
by MVP7
Looks like a nice new set of lists. Wouldn't the Genoese likely have some armoured spearmen though?
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:41 pm
by rbodleyscott
MVP7 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:38 pm
Looks like a nice new set of lists. Wouldn't the Genoese likely have some armoured spearmen though?
Possibly, although those might be the pavisiers at the front of the pavisier and crossbow units.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:08 am
by Meyre
The available number of pavisers and crossbowmen in all period to 0/6?
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:20 am
by rbodleyscott
Meyre wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:08 am
The available number of pavisers and crossbowmen in all period to 0/6?
I don't think so. They would probably be a minority type as they would not be much use on shipboard.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:33 am
by rbodleyscott
MVP7 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:38 pm
Looks like a nice new set of lists. Wouldn't the Genoese likely have some armoured spearmen though?
1320-1399 list adjusted accordingly - see above.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:38 am
by Dux Limitis
Or perhaps we can have a naval battle mode in the future.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:55 pm
by MVP7
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:33 am
MVP7 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:38 pm
Looks like a nice new set of lists. Wouldn't the Genoese likely have some armoured spearmen though?
1320-1399 list adjusted accordingly - see above.
Looks good to me. Considering the wealth and internal tensions of the Italian republics and the precarious locations of the Genoan colonies I'd think that's a reasonable number of well equipped guards/goons and it transitions nicely into the even more armoured later list.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:13 pm
by Mairtin
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:38 pm
Further reading indicates that they could sometimes have a higher proportion of men-at-arms, and at least sometimes armed their oarsmen.
Oarsmen.jpg
...
Given that the oarsmen's main role isn't fighting, even while at sea, should they be average? Below average or even raw would seem more appropriate.
I'm presuming that troops like county levies in the War of the Roses lists are the raw ones, even though they were required to maintain a certain level of training per year (especially the longbowmen), average for oarsmen just feels a bit too good.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:40 pm
by MVP7
Mairtin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:13 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:38 pm
Further reading indicates that they could sometimes have a higher proportion of men-at-arms, and at least sometimes armed their oarsmen.
Oarsmen.jpg
...
Given that the oarsmen's main role isn't fighting, even while at sea, should they be average? Below average or even raw would seem more appropriate.
I'm presuming that troops like county levies in the War of the Roses lists are the raw ones, even though they were required to maintain a certain level of training per year (especially the longbowmen), average for oarsmen just feels a bit too good.
The Oarsmen as shown are lightly protected and only have 67% swordsmen. That means they are significantly weaker than Brigans/Ribauds and they are at major disadvantage against Irregular foot on impact while having slim advantage in melee. Defensive spearmen capability of the Raw Spearmen is more powerful than the no-impact, 67% swordsmen capabilities of Oarsmen as well.
Overall, I think the Oarsmen's performance as proposed seems consistent with other comparable units even with the Average rating.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 1:10 am
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:38 pm
Further reading indicates that they could sometimes have a higher proportion of men-at-arms, and at least sometimes armed their oarsmen.
Oarsmen.jpg
Lists altered accordingly:
Genoese 1320-1399 AD.jpg
Genoese 1400-1449 AD.jpg
Genoese 1450-1475 AD.jpg
May I ask you for a read list about the medieval Genoese army mister? The Genoese army on land seems been largely neglected by many authors, or they only focus on the crossbowmen but never mention the other parts.
Re: Genoese Army Lists
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 5:51 am
by rbodleyscott
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Jun 29, 2025 1:10 am
May I ask you for a read list about the medieval Genoese army mister? The Genoese army on land seems been largely neglected by many authors, or they only focus on the crossbowmen but never mention the other parts.
I am afraid I cannot recall where I got that piece of information.