Slitherine

Hi,

I have yet to play FOG and am still working my way through the rules. However, I'm starting to turn my attention to rebasing and adding some figures to a 15mm Classical Greek army which has been in storage for a few years. I would appreciate some advice, and sample lists suggestions at 600 and 650 points which is my initial target. I don't want to spend time painting something that is a complete lemon!

The army would ideally be non-Spartan and either based on Thebans and or Athenians post 450BC. From reading posts it seems that I should be considering 8 stand BG's if using protected avergae hoplites. The initial draft army at 600 points has the following:

1 FC CinC
2 TC
4 x Greek Heavy Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen
4 x Greek Heavy Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen
6 x Elite Hoplites HF Protected Superior Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
6 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
6 x Peltasts LF Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
6 x Peltasts LF Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
6 x Slingers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Sling

Historically this list seems to have too many mounted and light foot, but not being sure how FOG plays I'm interested to see what tuning should be done.

My preference is to fight historical or near historical matchups. Enemies being drawn from the Immortal Fire or Rise of Rome books. However, I also very reluctantly have to accept I will likely have to fight non historical games. How would this impact army composition?

I would also be interested in comments on how this could possibly be expanded to 800 points at some time in the future. I would consider an earlier period for the larger points values, if there were very compelling reasons.

TWRNZ wrote:The army would ideally be non-Spartan and either based on Thebans and or Athenians post 450BC. From reading posts it seems that I should be considering 8 stand BG's if using protected avergae hoplites. The initial draft army at 600 points has the following:

1 FC CinC
2 TC
4 x Greek Heavy Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen
4 x Greek Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
4 x Greek Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
6 x Theban Hoplites HF Protected Superior Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Citizen Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Citizen Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Citizen Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
6 x Citizen Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
6 x Peltasts LF Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
6 x Peltasts LF Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
6 x Slingers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Sling

Historically this list seems to have too many mounted and light foot, but not being sure how FOG plays I'm interested to see what tuning should be done.

You say "post 450 BC", but since you are using drilled citizen hoplites the list cannot legally be before 370 BC. I don't think the overall proportion of cavalry and light troops is historically too high for a 4th century Theban army, but you can't have that many light horse: the maximum is 6 unless you are Thessalian. (I'd suggest two BGs of heavy cavalry and no lights, both on historical grounds and for in-game effectiveness.)

Best wishes,
Matthew

Thanks for your reply.

I was using the term "Citizen" hoplites as interchanable with mercenary before 370BC. The aim was to have all the hoplites as "drilled". Though undrilled is of course an option and could be better. Completely missed the limit on Light Horse, not sure how!

and 370 is post 450

philqw78 wrote:and 370 is post 450

Yes I realise that

Mercenary hoplites from 450 BC or Citizens from 370BC was the intent, both providing a drilled hoplite upgrade. I should have said drilled hoplites to avoid further confusion.

MCollett wrote:

TWRNZ wrote:The army would ideally be non-Spartan and either based on Thebans and or Athenians post 450BC.

You say "post 450 BC", but since you are using drilled citizen hoplites the list cannot legally be before 370 BC.

And you were right it is still post 450

I've changed the description of the hoplites, to make the intent clearer. In addition I have removed the Light Horse and replaced with one additional BG of cavalry as suggested earlier.

TWRNZ wrote:1 FC CinC
2 TC
4 x Greek Heavy Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen
4 x Greek Heavy Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen
6 x Elite Hoplites HF Protected Superior Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
8 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
6 x Upgraded Hoplites HF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen
6 x Peltasts LF Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
6 x Peltasts LF Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear
6 x Slingers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Sling

First, I cannot find Elite Hoplites in the list.
Second, you can use LH in a such army, with the limit of 6 bases, and I really would get them.
Third, an army list for a tournament like game should build with a game plan in mind. For example, you could plan to make a single and strong attack with an hoplites formation. To do so, you could use 3 hoplite BGs, 1 LF BG and a wing of Cavalry (LF can be used to protect front of hoplites during advance and then you can move them on flank to make a link with the cavalry wing). During setup, you can deploy LH and LF as last batch, so you can decide to use them before your attacking troops, or in another sector if there are no threats to your attack.
Last, I'm not against protected hoplites in BG of 6. Yes, units autobreak after 3 casualties instead of 4, but they suffer -1 in CT for 25% casualties after 2, as BG of 8 bases. This second for me is much more important in near historical game I played with hoplites.

IF your opponent has a lot of shooting troops (e.g. Persians) then I would put the hoplites in 8s, not 6s. With 8 you need to suffer 3 hits from shooting to cause a cohesion test, with 6 you only need 2. Protected foot is fairly vulnerable to shooting and that extra hit needed makes a big difference. Armoured foot is much less vulnerable.


If you anticipate deploying a line of hoplites and charging straight ahead, then you should consider taking some of them undrilled. Probably worth keeping drilled ones on the ends though, in case they need to respond to enemy coming round the flanks.

lawrenceg wrote:IF your opponent has a lot of shooting troops (e.g. Persians) then I would put the hoplites in 8s, not 6s. With 8 you need to suffer 3 hits from shooting to cause a cohesion test, with 6 you only need 2. Protected foot is fairly vulnerable to shooting and that extra hit needed makes a big difference. Armoured foot is much less vulnerable.


If you anticipate deploying a line of hoplites and charging straight ahead, then you should consider taking some of them undrilled. Probably worth keeping drilled ones on the ends though, in case they need to respond to enemy coming round the flanks.

Indeed we never played hoplites against oriental army, but just against Romans or Carthaginians. You can protect your hoplites with a screen of LF that can also shoot back, even if with lesser effect. LF can be in battle line with hoplites and if you put a commander with them you can make a CT with +3 (which likely becomes +2 due to fire effect). If you use undrilled hoplites you have good chance they charge without order, in a such case you enter in melee without to suffer any shooting.
In terms of points, you need to spend 14 points (undrilled protected hoplites) to give protection to a 3 bases wide hoplites unit. This because to be effective your idea unit need to be 3 bases wide, otherwise if you deploy 4 bases wide your opponent will shoot against with 6 dice (I assume a line of hoplites in front of a line of persian troops) and so he would have a good chance to trigger a CT and also a small chance to cause a casualty. If you use skirmisher you need only 12 points to protect a 3 bases wide hoplites unit. Of course such protection is less effective, because likely your troops will suffer a couple of shoot, but anyway skirmishers can be used after they finished with protection duty, while extra bases cannot. If I must attack a formation of persian infantry with hoplites, I would prefer to use rear support to bolster my attacking units, because units in support can be used to substitute units routing.

Have you considered the early option, the armoured spearmen are worth the extra points when you face in period opponents, even as late as the middle age foot in open tourneys.

It's indeed worthy to have hoplites armoured. But list gives them only before 460BC and we are talking of an army with options available after 450BC.

Maybe convert them to one of the other armies post 450 that have allied Greeks or use hoplites that are armoured ?

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe convert them to one of the other armies post 450 that have allied Greeks or use hoplites that are armoured ?

When I will play my own Greek army against Persians certainly I will use armoured hoplites, this because it's more historical and we play always historical match up, even when we play unconventional games. If you read other posts, you will see we was talking about possible solutions for a newbie who wants to use a Classical Greek army of a period subsequent to 450 BC.

marioslaz wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe convert them to one of the other armies post 450 that have allied Greeks or use hoplites that are armoured ?

When I will play my own Greek army against Persians certainly I will use armoured hoplites, this because it's more historical and we play always historical match up, even when we play unconventional games. If you read other posts, you will see we was talking about possible solutions for a newbie who wants to use a Classical Greek army of a period subsequent to 450 BC.

The hoplites could and should be used for the pre 450BC period. My interest is more on the post 450BC period, however I am open to games prior. Thoughts on earlier periods are therefore useful. Of course I can not accurately model the uniforms of all these periods, there were after all several changes in armour. I have at best what can be defined as a generic hoplite army

Scrumpy wrote:Have you considered the early option, the armoured spearmen are worth the extra points when you face in period opponents, even as late as the middle age foot in open tourneys.

I wondered if the armoured hoplites would be better in open turnaments. However, unless using Thessalians there is a reduction of cavalry. They drop down to only one battle group. Is this limatation significant in FOG? I would have expected it to be a significant disadvantage in a game other than a theme. Though of course cavalry are always going to be a weak arm with the Greeks.

I am also considering expanding the hoplites at some stage my using some of them in a Macedonian or Successor army. It depends if I can still source the Tin Soldier figures to expand them.

TWRNZ wrote:Of course I can not accurately model the uniforms of all these periods, there were after all several changes in armour. I have at best what can be defined as a generic hoplite army

Well, I own over 60 bases of hoplites like warriors, some are classical, some are hellenistic and some are italic. Anyway, I used all together in my armies (Classical Greek, Hellenistic Greek, Italiots) and I never hear any of my minis to lament to be out of role.