Slitherine

As the title states, will the appearance (helmets and plate armor coverage) of the late 1400's men-at-arms (MaA) be updated from the mid-1300s to mid-1400s bascinet with hounskull visor and partial mail coverage to the late 1400s-early 1500s armet [edit] (and sallet) with full plate armor?

The mounted handgunners in the French 1484-1500 AD list have the period-correct armet and more plate coverage than the MaA:



Here's a picture of the evolution of medieval and Renaissance armor from 1100-1610 AD (image was a screenshot from a YouTube video by Metatron titled "Medieval Weapons VS Roman Armour: Would Roman Armour Keep you Safe?"):



I understand if there are technical limitations of the engine, or financial/time constraints on changing the artwork. However, it is a bit jarring and immersion-disturbing to see this, as it would be to see (for example) modern-day infantrymen in combat wearing World War I uniforms and helmets, carrying bolt-action rifles.

The absence of new models for later 15th century men-at-arms was due to budgetary constraints both financial and temporal. The model itself would not be so much of an issue as developing the huge number of textures required for a full new set of Men-at-Arms.

We are a small indie studio and have to live within our means.

I do agree it would have been nice. But as they would be classified identically in game we were unable to justify it.

Perhaps some day.

Understood. Thanks for an excellent game.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:46 am The absence of new models for later 15th century men-at-arms was due to budgetary constraints both financial and temporal. The model itself would not be so much of an issue as developing the huge number of textures required for a full new set of Men-at-Arms.

We are a small indie studio and have to live within our means.

I do agree it would have been nice. But as they would be classified identically in game we were unable to justify it.

Perhaps some day.

Oh,mister,It's really sad to see such things.I think maybe the game should get back to the Pike&Shot and the Sengoku Jidai's styles if the budget does not permit to make a game with full 3D animated historical accurate unit models(This is the biggest flaw of the FoG 2).And honesty,I think those styles are way more historical accurate(Formations,flags/standards etc.).Hope the game could get back to that if the budget problems persist.Or please open a donate channel,it's not rare among the games nowadays,I'm sure me and the other players who wish these changes will be happy to donate your studio.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:58 am Oh,mister,It's really sad to see such things.I think maybe the game should get back to the Pike&Shot and the Sengoku Jidai's styles if the budget does not permit to make a game with full 3D animated historical accurate unit models(This is the biggest flaw of the FoG 2).

Personally I don't see the lack of 100% accurate unit models for 100% of units as that big of a deal. Sure, it would be nice to have them, but this is the world we live in. I absolutely WOULD NOT want to revert back to Pike&Shot style graphics under any circumstances.

It would be cool/fun though if RBS could periodically run kickstarters or some similar mechanisms to allow players (collectively or even motivated individuals) to pay for specific unit models, or sets thereof. You could even run a couple of competing model sets and have the set with the highest commitments get the nod.

76mm wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 10:35 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:58 am Oh,mister,It's really sad to see such things.I think maybe the game should get back to the Pike&Shot and the Sengoku Jidai's styles if the budget does not permit to make a game with full 3D animated historical accurate unit models(This is the biggest flaw of the FoG 2).

Personally I don't see the lack of 100% accurate unit models for 100% of units as that big of a deal. Sure, it would be nice to have them, but this is the world we live in. I absolutely WOULD NOT want to revert back to Pike&Shot style graphics under any circumstances.

It would be cool/fun though if RBS could periodically run kickstarters or some similar mechanisms to allow players (collectively or even motivated individuals) to pay for specific unit models, or sets thereof. You could even run a couple of competing model sets and have the set with the highest commitments get the nod.

I'm not saying that we must revert back to the Pike&Shot style,but if the budget problem persists,that might be the best solution,at least better than seeing your army still in 14th century styles in the late 15th century or in 15th century styles in the 14th century.Though,the ideal solution is the Mr.Richard opens a donate channel to allow the players donate the studio no doubt,I've brought this up several times.

I personally hope that this style will be maintained for future games. The limitations are a problem but the developers have managed to save their resources so that the game still looks good. For my part, I love this game so much that I have gladly provided some textures.

As for the men-at-arms of 1450-1500... I don't see the need to use too many textures. The horse armor would already be all metal plate, the same for the body armor. As for the lances, I would make them without banner, as for the light-armed men. So, if we eliminate the heraldic elements (the lances without a banner would be colored) a couple of textures per side would suffice.

toska wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:27 pm As for the men-at-arms of 1450-1500... I don't see the need to use too many textures. The horse armor would already be all metal plate, the same for the body armor. As for the lances, I would make them without banner, as for the light-armed men. So, if we eliminate the heraldic elements (the lances without a banner would be colored) a couple of textures per side would suffice.

This is to some extent true, although in reality it seems likely that many/most nobles would put their heraldic emblems on their horse armour at least, and sometimes on a tabard.

However, if people would prefer (and accept without complaint) rather boring looking units with contemporary "white armour" to the current colourful units with anachronistic armour, that would be more feasible. It would, however, still require about a week's work by the artist and animator, so isn't something we can promise.

How would we make Mercenary MAA easily distinguishable from Superior ones. Would simply having unpainted lances be sufficient?

I was thinking of something like this.




Normal men-at-arms would carry colorful spears and multi-colored feathers on their helmets. With different color combinations you can give variety. Some may also have gold details on the armor.

For the mercenaries, the feathers and the golden details can be eliminated. Horses will be brown and some of their mounts may not wear plate armor (only in heat). As for the spears, some can be black or brown and those that are colorful could have a less bright color.

I don't think the result is boring, and in any case the result will be more historic for the armies of the second half of the XV century.

I just like to say that, I also like Toska's idea.

MaxRobespierre wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 4:52 pm I just like to say that, I also like Toska's idea.

I like MaxRobespierre liking Toska's idea

rbodleyscott wrote:However, if people would prefer (and accept without complaint) rather boring looking units with contemporary "white armour" to the current colourful units with anachronistic armour, that would be more feasible. It would, however, still require about a week's work by the artist and animator, so isn't something we can promise.

Not boring at all, I think the "white armour" would be excellent, and with the details (and for the reasons) toska mentioned.

Although I don't own "Pike & Shot", I've seen enough YouTube videos of it to say that I personally prefer the FOG2 graphics myself.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:34 pm

toska wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:27 pm As for the men-at-arms of 1450-1500... I don't see the need to use too many textures. The horse armor would already be all metal plate, the same for the body armor. As for the lances, I would make them without banner, as for the light-armed men. So, if we eliminate the heraldic elements (the lances without a banner would be colored) a couple of textures per side would suffice.

This is to some extent true, although in reality it seems likely that many/most nobles would put their heraldic emblems on their horse armour at least, and sometimes on a tabard.

However, if people would prefer (and accept without complaint) rather boring looking units with contemporary "white armour" to the current colourful units with anachronistic armour, that would be more feasible. It would, however, still require about a week's work by the artist and animator, so isn't something we can promise.

How would we make Mercenary MAA easily distinguishable from Superior ones. Would simply having unpainted lances be sufficient?

Don't forget that you would probably need separate textures for all the military orders (Teutonic knights, Hospitallers, Iberian orders etc), maybe for the Poles also.

A very important piece of armour for most European nations from the end of the Hundred Years War to the end of the 1400's is the open or a closed "salet" style helmet. This was THE helmet of the period, sometimes all steel colour, sometimes for Continental armies, brightly painted. It came in many variations but the basic salet would be all you need to give "the Rise of the Swiss" a feeling of authenticity. The game modeling is excellent, the scenarios are terrific. I hope some clever modder will help bring the salet to the game. With the amazing variety of costumes/armour provided in-game for all the other units we have seen, from Ancient Egypt to the Hundred Years War, I am very disappointed that the actual, historical, most popular and distinctive helmet from 1450 to 1500 was sacrificed for cost reasons.

Speak about the new models will be used from the 1450 AD,I think we'd better use them from the 1430 AD,as from the 1430s these kind of styles were not rare.

Paul59 wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 8:53 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:34 pm

toska wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:27 pm As for the men-at-arms of 1450-1500... I don't see the need to use too many textures. The horse armor would already be all metal plate, the same for the body armor. As for the lances, I would make them without banner, as for the light-armed men. So, if we eliminate the heraldic elements (the lances without a banner would be colored) a couple of textures per side would suffice.

This is to some extent true, although in reality it seems likely that many/most nobles would put their heraldic emblems on their horse armour at least, and sometimes on a tabard.

However, if people would prefer (and accept without complaint) rather boring looking units with contemporary "white armour" to the current colourful units with anachronistic armour, that would be more feasible. It would, however, still require about a week's work by the artist and animator, so isn't something we can promise.

How would we make Mercenary MAA easily distinguishable from Superior ones. Would simply having unpainted lances be sufficient?

Don't forget that you would probably need separate textures for all the military orders (Teutonic knights, Hospitallers, Iberian orders etc), maybe for the Poles also.

Wow, didn't think of that. In this case the texture for the military orders should include some kind of pectoral surcoat with the emblem of the order. I don't think a special modeling is necessary, with a texture that represents an overdress very tight to the chest.

As for the Poles, I don't know exactly how their appearance evolved. I mean I don't know if the new armors spread fast or in the same way.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:02 am Speak about the new models will be used from the 1450 AD,I think we'd better use them from the 1430 AD,as from the 1430s these kind of styles were not rare.

Of these, the first two do appear to be contemporary.

However, the third is from the Jena Codex, compiled circa 1500, and cannot therefore be taken as a reliable source for the actual armour used at the Battle of Domazlice, 1431. As we know, Medieval painters tended to show armour contemporary to the date of painting, not the date of the battle depicted. We don't know exactly when the illustration was painted, but very probably well after the date of the battle.

http://warfare.ga/16/Hussite-Jena_Codex ... e_1431.htm

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenaer_Kodex

toska wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 1:47 pm

Paul59 wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 8:53 pm
Don't forget that you would probably need separate textures for all the military orders (Teutonic knights, Hospitallers, Iberian orders etc), maybe for the Poles also.

Wow, didn't think of that. In this case the texture for the military orders should include some kind of pectoral surcoat with the emblem of the order. I don't think a special modeling is necessary, with a texture that represents an overdress very tight to the chest.

As for the Poles, I don't know exactly how their appearance evolved. I mean I don't know if the new armors spread fast or in the same way.

I was thinking more along the lines that the Poles need separate textures because they have different capabilities to the normal MAA (ie: 50% crossbow). So they could probably wear tabards with distinctive Polish heraldry, just as the they do now with the current MAA model.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:20 pm

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:02 am Speak about the new models will be used from the 1450 AD,I think we'd better use them from the 1430 AD,as from the 1430s these kind of styles were not rare.

Of these, the first two do appear to be contemporary.

However, the third is from the Jena Codex, compiled circa 1500, and cannot therefore be taken as a reliable source for the actual armour used at the Battle of Domazlice, 1431. As we know, Medieval painters tended to show armour contemporary to the date of painting, not the date of the battle depicted. We don't know exactly when the illustration was painted, but very probably well after the date of the battle.

http://warfare.ga/16/Hussite-Jena_Codex ... e_1431.htm

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenaer_Kodex

Oh,my bad,I forget it's from the late 15th to early 16th century.I'll check carefully next time.

By the way,the tabard/surcoat,though they're not that common than before in the late 15th century,but still in use,if some models could wear them,that would be really nice.

toska wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 3:02 pm I was thinking of something like this.




Normal men-at-arms would carry colorful spears and multi-colored feathers on their helmets. With different color combinations you can give variety. Some may also have gold details on the armor.

For the mercenaries, the feathers and the golden details can be eliminated. Horses will be brown and some of their mounts may not wear plate armor (only in heat). As for the spears, some can be black or brown and those that are colorful could have a less bright color.

I don't think the result is boring, and in any case the result will be more historic for the armies of the second half of the XV century.

Sounds perfect to me. I don't even think the golden details are necessary - painted lances and feathers on helmets would probably be sufficient to distinguish non-mercenary MAA, as lances and banners are for the current models. Some different barding on the mounts would be an added bonus, but probably unnecessary as the armor levels for both are the same.

76mm wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 10:35 am Personally I don't see the lack of 100% accurate unit models for 100% of units as that big of a deal. Sure, it would be nice to have them, but this is the world we live in. I absolutely WOULD NOT want to revert back to Pike&Shot style graphics under any circumstances.

I honestly prefer a bigger formation models of Pike&Shot, plus I like the rules (flanking unengaged units, reactive fire from movement, get automated fire during opponent's turn).