Slitherine

Can't win epic battle as Hussites, suggestions?

Zoidfarb wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 7:56 pm Can't win epic battle as Hussites, suggestions?

It's probably best to play as the Hussites in a few custom battles first, to get the hang of playing with war wagons, they are very different to any other units.

Make sure you read and understand the scenario introduction, the Hussites can win if they can get all of their unbroken units off the far map edge.

I have won twice on Prince level by evacuating the Hussite army off the map edge, but the beta testers reported wins on the lower levels by getting the enemy to the normal break points, so both methods are possible. Only one beta tester reported losing, and he wasn't familiar with using war wagons.

Probably the best advice is to keep the war wagons together, capture the Victory Point at King Sigismund's camp as quick as you can, and hold onto it with one or two units while the rest of the army escapes. If the Hussites control the VP it reduces the chances of the enemy reinforcements arriving, simulating disruption to the enemy's communications. If at least 2 groups of reinforcements have arrived, you might as well abandon the VP and run for the map edge.

Is the VP the one square with the caption?

fogman wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 11:19 pm Is the VP the one square with the caption?

The VP tile is marked by a banner, the banner changes depending upon which side controls it.

In the scenario introduction there needs to be a mention of the VP and what control entails. Maybe mousing over the tile gives a description.

But I'm glad there is such a thing. The team had argued in the past fighting wasn't about control of terrain features. I think that's needed to entice players to play historically.

fogman wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 12:12 am In the scenario introduction there needs to be a mention of the VP and what control entails. Maybe mousing over the tile gives a description.

What, you mean something like this:

"If they can capture the victory point at King Sigismund's camp it will disrupt the Crusader's communications, and delay the arrival of their reinforcements."

That just proves what I have always thought, no one ever reads the scenario intros.

I saw that. What I meant was something more precise than 'delay the arrival'. What is the calculation involved here? And where are those reinforcements coming from?

fogman wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 12:38 am I saw that. What I meant was something more precise than 'delay the arrival'. What is the calculation involved here? And where are those reinforcements coming from?

I deliberately did not mention the precise percentage chances of arrival, a real life commander would not know that.

It's a fair point about the direction of the reinforcements though. I had intended to indicate on the map the direction of the bulk of the Crusader army encampment, and hence the direction from which reinforcements would come, but it seems that did not get added.

One can argue a commander wouldn't know the exact odds of his unit winning a fight either

what level is the 'neutral' level before manipulation to the morale ratings to make it easier/harder? III or IV?

fogman wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 5:41 pm what level is the 'neutral' level before manipulation to the morale ratings to make it easier/harder? III or IV?

I'm not sure what you mean? Kutna Hora does not use a morale/quality manipulation method to set the difficulty in either the Hussite or Crusader player scenarios.

I was actually looking at Towton and Bosworth where units clearly have different morale depending on the level of difficulty. How are levels implemented at Kutna Hora?

fogman wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 7:41 pm I was actually looking at Towton and Bosworth where units clearly have different morale depending on the level of difficulty. How are levels implemented at Kutna Hora?

The Hussite player version of Kutna Hora increasingly reduces the size of the Crusader army at Duke level and below.

The Crusader player version uses the traditional method of reducing the size of the players army at the higher levels of difficulty.

ok thanks. I play hotseat and need to know which level is 'authentic'. (I suppose that would be the one selected when playing MP too). Can you also state the level for Towton and Bosworth too? Have you considered leaving the units ratings and numbers unchanged and just manipulate the victory conditions instead?

fogman wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 10:55 pm ok thanks. I play hotseat and need to know which level is 'authentic'. (I suppose that would be the one selected when playing MP too). Can you also state the level for Towton and Bosworth too? Have you considered leaving the units ratings and numbers unchanged and just manipulate the victory conditions instead?

For Bosworth a lot of the events in the scenario depend upon the rout percentages of the two armies. Therefore it was obvious that the normal method of balancing the scenario ie; by varying the numbers of units at each difficulty level, would upset everything. Also the initial armies of both sides are quite small, so using the traditional method would result in the player having a tiny army at the higher levels of difficulty. So instead, I have implemented a system where the player's unit quality reduces at each difficulty level (and for the Yorkist player scenario, it also increases the quality of the Tudors units).

For the best Bosworth Hot Seat experience I would guess that you should try the Yorkist player version at Knight (level 2), which gives the normal unit quality for both sides. This would give the initial armies (ie: Norfolk and Oxford's commands) roughly equal points and units.

For Towton, the Lancastrian player version uses normal unit quality at Knight (level 2), higher difficulty levels reduce the quality of the Lancastrian units and increase the Yorkist unit quality. The Yorkist player version uses the traditional method of reducing the size of the players army at the higher levels of difficulty.

So for Towton Hot Seat try the Lancastrian version at Knight (level 2). The Lancastrian army will be significantly larger, until Norfolk's contingent arrives, but the Yorkists will have the advantage of the wind, that is probably the historically authentic situation. However, the Lancastrians are prevented from moving initially, and the timing for this was adjusted to work against the AI. Against a human opponent it is probably too OP, but see how it goes.

I have occasionally used custom victory conditions, but never for setting the difficulty levels. I am not sure if that is possible, and it would probably require some very complex scripting. But thanks for the idea anyway, it's certainly something that can be considered for the future, if I ever design any more scenarios for FOG2.

It doesn’t have to be complex. It would just involve changing the loss % required to win the scenario; for instance 65% enemy casualties on a hard level, 25% on easy level or some other variations. A whole lot easier to test a scenario than to change the OOB every time. And I still don’t understand why there needs to be 6 levels. Seems excessive. Makes it look like an arcade game.

fogman wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 11:47 pm It doesn’t have to be complex. It would just involve changing the loss % required to win the scenario; for instance 65% enemy casualties on a hard level, 25% on easy level or some other variations.

Believe me, the scripting for that would be complex. Also, you would have to have more scripting to ensure that the UI displayed the correct victory conditions for each difficulty level.

I could probably work it out, I have done similar things before, just not with the victory conditions. So until I attempt it, I don't know for sure if it is possible.

The other thing to consider is just how useful such a method would be. Say I reduced the first break point to 25% for Knight level, as far as I know the 25% minimum difference between the two rout levels cannot be changed. So the Knight level player would have to get the enemy to 25% routed without suffering any losses at all, so it really wouldn't be much easier anyway.

EDIT: I have found that one of the Sengoku Jidai scenarios uses different victory conditions to set the difficulty levels, and yes, the scripting is giving me a headache just looking at it!

So it is something I will consider in future, if I ever design anymore FOG2 scenarios.

Curious, I remember being able to set the % for victory conditions in Pike and Shot. Maybe the 25% difference wasn't there. Now in Fog1 where there is no scripting, I call it analog, I can increase overall troops by setting up 'marker units' in one corner to manipulate the overall % as needed. Something like that could be done here.

fogman wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 12:43 pm Curious, I remember being able to set the % for victory conditions in Pike and Shot. Maybe the 25% difference wasn't there. Now in Fog1 where there is no scripting, I call it analog, I can increase overall troops by setting up 'marker units' in one corner to manipulate the overall % as needed. Something like that could be done here.

In your old Pike and Shot scenarios you changed the victory conditions, but all difficulty levels had the same new victory conditions. To make each difficulty level have a unique victory condition requires much more complex scripting.

However the scripts used in the Sengoku Jidai scenario Mikatagahara shows that it can be done, assuming that there have been no changes to the FOG2 game engine and main scripts that would prevent it.

Paul59 wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 8:54 pm

Zoidfarb wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 7:56 pm Can't win epic battle as Hussites, suggestions?

It's probably best to play as the Hussites in a few custom battles first, to get the hang of playing with war wagons, they are very different to any other units.

Make sure you read and understand the scenario introduction, the Hussites can win if they can get all of their unbroken units off the far map edge.

I have won twice on Prince level by evacuating the Hussite army off the map edge, but the beta testers reported wins on the lower levels by getting the enemy to the normal break points, so both methods are possible. Only one beta tester reported losing, and he wasn't familiar with using war wagons.

Probably the best advice is to keep the war wagons together, capture the Victory Point at King Sigismund's camp as quick as you can, and hold onto it with one or two units while the rest of the army escapes. If the Hussites control the VP it reduces the chances of the enemy reinforcements arriving, simulating disruption to the enemy's communications. If at least 2 groups of reinforcements have arrived, you might as well abandon the VP and run for the map edge.

Despite holding the camp reinforcements kept coming in.
Did win by escaping