Slitherine

See the photo below



Battle Group A is within charge reach of both Battle Groups B and C. The terrain is a forest. The battle group is knights and as such only moves 1" within the forest, but 4" in good going. The base nearest the terrain is behind it, so if it moved forward it would enter the Forest.

The argument was that Battle Group A does not need to test to not charge as it could end up in terrain that would disorder it. My argument was that the battlegroup could not possibly end up in disordering terrain since if it did enter the terrain it would not move far enough to get into contact with the enemy. Pg 56 refers.

Battlegroups are able to drop bases back to avoid terrain that would severely disorder it (pg 52 -- formation charges when charging)

So - should the battlegroup have to charge? The battle group would have to drop a base back to avoid the terrain.

Yes.
Drop a base.
Your quote from the rules, Forest is difficult therefore severe disorder.
Don't mice about, charge.

No, they can but don't have to

I think the rules are unclear.

The first bullet point on P56 states that it is their normal move through the terrain to be crossed that is measured. Since the terrain is a forest there can be no charge.

BUT

The 2nd sentence on P57 :"They may also drop back a single base if they can only reach the enemy by doing so."

If I were the umpire I would have ruled they should either charge or test not to. Otherwise shock troops can always avoid charging without orders by sticking part of a base behind slowing terrain. My simple take on it is that if you could choose to charge then you should test not to unless one of the other exceptions means you don't have to.

Pete is correct - the BG must charge or test not to.

Page 52 states that a BG
"can contract the battlegroup's frontage by one base if necessary to pass friendly troops , the table edge, or terrain that is either impassable or which would severely disorder them"

Page 56 first bullet as quoted by Pete refers to "the terrain to be crossed" and the terrain in question will not be "crossed" - under any circumstances given the situation - so that bullet can be ignored..
Which leaves us with the quote from page 57 "They may also drop back a single base if they can only reach the enemy by doing so."

I can take a look at rewording it to make it even more obvious.

A BG cannot be contracted to avoid hitting enemy who would otherwise be in the path of it's charge (P52). As the BGs are aligned, BG A's left hand base is 'looking' at the left hand base of BG C it seems. So surely BG a is unable to contract, as they would avoid hitting enemy BG C's base. So BG A can't declare a charge and doesn't have to test to charge without orders.

A BG cannot be contracted to avoid hitting enemy who would otherwise be in the path of it's charge (P52). As the BGs are aligned, BG A's left hand base is 'looking' at the left hand base of BG C it seems. So surely BG a is unable to contract, as they would avoid hitting enemy BG C's base. So BG A can't declare a charge and doesn't have to test to charge without orders.

But there is no way that BG 'A' can charge BG 'C' - so how can it ever be considered "in the path".
The only way that BG 'A' can charge is to contract a base. - therefore there can be no enemy "in the path" of its left hand base.

So the rules contradict each other
They must contract to charge and cannot contract to charge

They must contract to charge and cannot contract to charge

They can contract to charge.

Page 52 states that a BG
"can contract the battlegroup's frontage by one base if necessary to pass friendly troops , the table edge, or terrain that is either impassable or which would severely disorder them"

terrys wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:31 pm

A BG cannot be contracted to avoid hitting enemy who would otherwise be in the path of it's charge (P52). As the BGs are aligned, BG A's left hand base is 'looking' at the left hand base of BG C it seems. So surely BG a is unable to contract, as they would avoid hitting enemy BG C's base. So BG A can't declare a charge and doesn't have to test to charge without orders.

But there is no way that BG 'A' can charge BG 'C' - so how can it ever be considered "in the path".
The only way that BG 'A' can charge is to contract a base. - therefore there can be no enemy "in the path" of its left hand base.

The problem is it's a situation not envisioned by the written rule and those things often make an umpire call difficult. For example, P50 says you can only charge if the enemy can be contacted within it's normal move distance through the terrain to be crossed. This terrain is part open and part difficult. So you can argue that the enemy has to be within 1MU. Or you can argue that the forest is not the terrain to be crossed as you are going to drop a base back. Murky.

I would be quite happy with a clarification that the chargers can contract a base and go in just on BG B, but it current falls into a bit of a lacuna in the rules.

I suggested a clarification stating the following:

if a Battle Group can only make contact without entering severely disordering terrain (including dropping bases) then they may charge without orders

Contract by one base to pass friendly troops etc, NOT to avoid hitting enemy.
Seems logical and adequately written on page 52.
Stop the pedantry and either charge or roll the dice not to.
No wonder players are leaving FoG.

Isn't there somewhere that says that a BG can shift upto half a base to avoid disordering terrain? That may only be for movement though and not charges?

Isn't there somewhere that says that a BG can shift upto half a base to avoid disordering terrain? That may only be for movement though and not charges?

As you pointed out - That is for movement not charges.

The basic rule of thumb is that "if you can charge normally declare a charge into an enemy then you can also charge them without orders."
The only difference is that when 'charging without orders' you effectively ignore the presence of friendly BGs that are not already charging or in combat and burst through them if necessary (except when the target is skirmishers only).