Slitherine

After a couple of "educational" campaigns either as Rome (played until reaching #1 Legacy and top 5 Culture spots before restarting) or else places far from Rome, I decided to re-try the Etruscans. My earlier efforts all ended in obliteration as soon as Rome took an interest in my cities.

This time around, I had a bit better understanding of the mechanics. For lack of any opportunity to build a Barracks or other structure to activate Heavy Infantry, I was limited to my two initial Heavy Infantry plus some Medium Infantry and Cavalry, backed by skirmishers and light cavalry. My best General was a 1-1 with no negative traits (the others being either 1-0, 0-1, or 0-0). My troops gained some experience in annexing a couple of independent territories to the NW, but anything further was going to have to wait until after the random chance to unlock HI.

My efforts to improve relations with Rome to secure an alliance met with utter failure, and after clearing out the Samnites they inevitably declared war on Etruria. My stack of 18 units (2xHInf, 6xInf, 2xMCav, 6xSkirm, and 2xLCav) was wiped by 16 Roman units without even inflicting a single Strength point on the Romans. My skirmishers only inflicted a grand total of 1 point of fatigue on their army, while about 50% of my own frontline troops suffered reductions to Exhausted. EVERY matchup except my two HInf were destroyed in the initial melee (those "only" suffered 2 strength hits), and then the HI were destroyed in the pursuit phase. Game over. I must be missing something important, because I can't see ANY way that I could have survived Rome's invasion.

How are the Etruscans even playable in this game, unless they luck out and get BOTH an early building opportunity to unlock Heavy Infantry AND a 2-skill General? Rome starts with both, so the window of opportunity before they get an objective on your capital is rather narrow, and the odds poor at best.

If you are playing in a MP game, you are screwed. Any half competent human as Rome will beat the poop out of Ertruria.

If you are playing Single Player game, then all is not lost. It is not easy, but it is possible.

The key is to have one defensive general who is at least 0-1, and give him a proper garrison and keep him in your capital during the war (from the very beginning of the war, not a turn or two later, but immediatly). The biggest mistake you make is to wait until war is declared, and then assign a leader to the garrison -> the garrison fights at a ~20% disadvantage if the romans immediatly assault (as they should do) because the first turn a new leader takes control of a force they lose their effective experience. In essence, if you assign the commander just before the fight, you have a medium-light garrison fighting at -20% effectiveness against a (probably) war-hardened (from the samnite campaign) Roman heavy infantry; the etruscans in the garrison won't be even a speed-bump to the roman army.

On the very first turn split up your army in two. Decide who will (eventually) be in the garrison, and who will be in the field-army (remember to have the field-army at least one unit larger, so that the field army commander takes command). Assign the defensive commander (0-1 if you don't have any better ones) to the "garrison" army, and your better commander to the "field-army". In the years before the war with Rome starts, always move these two together, so that they both get into battle together, and so that the field-army commander has command of the whole army (get experience to your army farming the indy regions in north and north-east). The important thing is to have your two heavy infantry units in the "garrison" part of the army, because they need to get familiar with the defensive commander.

When romans seem to get finished with Samnites, move the garrison army to your capital, and get inside the walls. Move the field army to the hills out of sight of the romans. When Rome declares war, time your field army to arrive in your capital (count the movement points; you want to arrive in your capital one impulse later than the Romans arrive from Rome) one impulse after the Romans arrive. The romans will very likely assault the city, where you have your veteran garrison (with your heavy infantry holding the gate together with the palace guard) under your defensive commander; it is very unlikely the romans would be able to crush the defenders in one round (you have the benefits of the wall, experienced troops and a defensive general who the troops trust). Then next pulse your field army arrives, there is a field battle which you very likely might lose, but it doesn't matter, because the Romans will then immediatly assault the city, and this time they will be routed. When your next turn loads up, you should have romans out of Ertruria, your garrison in ok shape, and your field army out of sight again.

Rome will attack again, and you will have to defend similarily again. While the roman army seems terrifying, they can't handle the losses over a prolonged time, and eventually they will either offer a peace or blunder their army away. Take the peace if you can, and hope you get heavy infantry too during the peace time

Swuul wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:09 pm If you are playing in a MP game, you are screwed. Any half competent human as Rome will beat the poop out of Ertruria.

If you are playing Single Player game, then all is not lost. It is not easy, but it is possible.

The key is to have one defensive general who is at least 0-1, and give him a proper garrison and keep him in your capital during the war (from the very beginning of the war, not a turn or two later, but immediatly). The biggest mistake you make is to wait until war is declared, and then assign a leader to the garrison -> the garrison fights at a ~20% disadvantage if the romans immediatly assault (as they should do) because the first turn a new leader takes control of a force they lose their effective experience. In essence, if you assign the commander just before the fight, you have a medium-light garrison fighting at -20% effectiveness against a (probably) war-hardened (from the samnite campaign) Roman heavy infantry; the etruscans in the garrison won't be even a speed-bump to the roman army.

I had a 1-1 general assigned from day one of the campaign, so there was no penalty. My army picked up some experience against the independents in two regions to the north-west. It still wasn't even close to enough. There was no "second round" of combat, because my units were defeated and routed in the initial impulse.

Three more tries with Etruria, and all ended a few turns after Rome took out the Samnites. I then played a few turns as Rome, and crushed the Etruscans effortlessly. Time to give up on the Etruscans as a hopeless case unless you luck out and get a building to unlock Heavy Infantry on the first turn or two, plus a good general, otherwise it's "game over".

honvedseg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:29 pm I had a 1-1 general assigned from day one of the campaign, so there was no penalty. My army picked up some experience against the independents in two regions to the north-west. It still wasn't even close to enough. There was no "second round" of combat, because my units were defeated and routed in the initial impulse.

Three more tries with Etruria, and all ended a few turns after Rome took out the Samnites. I then played a few turns as Rome, and crushed the Etruscans effortlessly. Time to give up on the Etruscans as a hopeless case unless you luck out and get a building to unlock Heavy Infantry on the first turn or two, plus a good general, otherwise it's "game over".

You need two armies to be able to survive with Ertruria. One vs one Rome will always beat up the etrusc armies.

EDIT: If I have time during the weekend, I'll make a short mini-AAR here. Haven't played FOGE for a while anyway, should be fun to see if I can pull it through

Ok, first 19 turns of the mini-AAR "Eff Ertruria, eh?"

On first turn I split the army in two. I had access to two 0-0 commanders, one 1-1 commander with coastal movement, and one 0-1 commander with rugged terrain movement bonus. I gave the 0-1 my two heavy infantries and two skirmishers, and everything else to the 1-1 commander. In the regions I then recruited one medium infantry, and two skirmishers. I had the regional decission to pacify babarians, and used it on Senones, and to my pleasent surprise I got a third HI The HI (and a third skirmisher) was give to the 0-1, everything else to the 1-1, and off to conquer the independent Liguria.

After Liguria had been liberated I got the regional decission to recruit local troops, so the armies stepped back inside Italia Superior. I used the decission, and the two provincial Italian medium infatries were added to the army. One turn later they were fully effective, and the other troops had been fully replaced, so off to war with the Celtics. During the war one of the provincial infantries fell, but I used another Regional Decission to recruit two more.

On turn 15 the Celtics had been all but annihilated, but they refused to surrender. Nevertheless, the province of Cisalpina was formed, and the armies moved to positions ready for Rome. The defensive army moved inside the walls of Ertruria, and the main army parked in the region north of it. The armies had been pretty mauled during the campaign (all the three HI's were on their last HP), so it was time to lick my wounds and get ready.

On turn 19 the Celtics finally surrendered, and now we are waiting for Rome. The region NE of Ertruria is building barracks, so eventually we will get more HI, but as I don't have control of the province, it will be slow indeed. Here I am praying for a barracks to pop up in Cisalpina, so that the HI factory could be started.



Rome military might sure looks scary, but they are burning more resources than they are getting (but as it is Rome, they have piles and piles of resources still). Rome is at war with all its neighbours (minus Ertruria), so they are stretched out atm.



Ertruria on the other hand is militarily much weaker, but I trust in my chosen strategy. Better yet, when I eventually get access to HI, I have a a decent piles stocked up already, and I am only beginning to get the economy running. But at this very moment, Rome is much stronger than Ertruria in everything but population.

Been a busy weekend for me, but today I had time to play another 19 turns.

Rome was ravaging Senones, and as the last Senone region was in Cisalpina *and* had a military barracks (allowing Phalanx recruitment), I decided to swoop in. This gave the province of Cisalpina Phalanx production, and the phalanx factory was set into motion.

Not one moment too soon! Turn 24 Rome declares war!



We have only one phalanx at the moment with the "mobile" army, but they have the crack provincial infantry and veteran light cavalry (light cavalry really is something many people don't realise how good it is; cheap, always sets up on the far flanks, so it gets free hacks at the enemy end-of line or rear-line (unless it is countered by hostile horses, of course)). I order the army to take the scenic route to Ertruria, so that it will arrive one impulse after the Romans have (hopefully) assaulted the walled city (where the crack heavy infantry together with one provincial infantry and two regular medium infantry is standing in garrison with their 0-1 leader, and as the romans assault, my units will be joined by the Palace Guards, so that will be six tough as nails infantry at front (which will be six squares wide, because of the unbreached gate)) -> my mobile army will engage the exhausted roman army after the failed assault, and kick them out (the Roman armies on the border don't seem to have cavalry at all, so I am very confident my light cavalry will have a field day).



Everything goes better than expected. The roman assault on the city spectacularily fails, and the urban militia go absolutely crazy in their pursuit. Only seven roman legions escape the gates of Hell... errr.. I mean, the gates of Ertruria, as the urban militia whacks down the rest during pursuit. As my mobile army arrives, they just mop up the remnants. Not many romans get back home from this journey.



Ertruria land-power is rising, the "power-rating" now shows 145, while the badly mauled Romans are standing at 150.




Rome doesn't attack on turn 25, and I get to add one more Phalanx to the mobile army. I decided to make a daring attack down the eastern pennisula. I will grab (if all goes well, that is) one region from Rome and and the indy region south of it, both part of Italia Superior. That will be enough for me to form Italia Superior province, and even though I no doubt will lose those two regions to the Roman retaliation, the province will stand until the end of the war. And if I get to form the province, not only get I access to the excellent provincial infantry, but I also get to pool all my resources together for recruiting.



The plan went otherwise splendidly, but the Romans move in to Erturia and put it under siege. Happily they did not assault it this time, so I have time to bring back the mobile army, using the shortcut through Rome itself The besieging army looks at first very strong, but again it has no medium infantry or any cavalry at all. It will take ages for them to siege anything (as I have medium infantry inside, who also counter any siege attempts). And as they have no cavalry, my light horses should again have a field day (sic!).



When my army arrived, the fight was extremely tough. I lost three of my medium infantries and my phalanx units took a hit here and there, but the light horses killed four roman units, which resulted in victory for Erturia! The pursuit was once again brutal, and the Roman army all but wiped out. I had to move the mobile army back a bit to recieve reinforcements (I recruited provincial infantry in Italia Superior, and the Phalanx units are trickling down from Cisalpina one per turn).

However, also Rome is starting to feel the attrition. Their land-power is getting smaller, and their money-coffers are getting lighter. They still have a poop-ton of manpower and metal though, so they will soon enough charge back in.



The roman incursions continue, and they are swatted back. On turn 35 the largest Roman army so far arrives, this time they even have cavalry and medium infantry with them! The field battle ends twice in Draw, and both sides suffer losses but it starts to look bad for Ertruria (as the Roman heavies are in better condition after two rounds). In the third round Ertruria has two horses left, Rome just one, and that is the tipping point, as both Ertrurian horses get a kill (the Ertrurian and Roman horses facing each others killed each other) and one of the Phalanx units also get a kill. The pursuit again sends many romans to their graves, but Ertruria again has to rebuild the army.



The rebuild drains the Ertrurian treasury, but a new and stronger army is standing ready when the Romans again bring in their legions to siege the capital. The mobile army moves in.



The Roman army is this time destroyed without too much hassle. For the first time Ertruria now is stronger in Land Power than Rome, and their manpower has dropped to zero. From here on it is just mopping up.




And thus ends this AAR. My initial thoughts was that I would end once I had annexed Rome, but I just don't have time for that atm. But as the Ertrurian army now is stronger and the Roman manpower drained out, it is just a matter of time.

Hopefully this very brief mini-AAR gives some insights on how Ertruria can survive against Rome. If anybody has any questions, I'll be happy to answer (but it might take me a day or two, so please don't excepect me to sit here ready to type answers as I see questions ).

Congrats, you proved your point!

What exactly happens if you plan the Roman attacks but they don't. You end up with your mobile army at your capital, and then the turn after before you move it away, they attack?

Pocus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:05 pm What exactly happens if you plan the Roman attacks but they don't. You end up with your mobile army at your capital, and then the turn after before you move it away, they attack?

Yes, though the AI is not very good at hiding its intentions. It usually parks the attacking army right next to the region which it intends to attack. In this example the AI surprised me exactly once, on turn 26/27. As you can see from the screenshot showing the situation at turn 26, AI Rome has a grand total of 4 HI and 4 skirmishers next to Ertruria, which is not an attacking army the AI would use. This is why I dashed down the east-coast to Aternus. The AI however had VI Army parked south-east of Rome along the road somewhere, and they did march to Ertruria (as you can see in the screenshot of turn 27).

Every other time an attack happened on Ertruria, AI parked the attacking units so that I could see them the turn before. Not a single time did the AI build-up the forces and then *not* attack. The AI just can't stand the lure of attacking the capital of a country which seemingly is defended by an inferior force. That actually leads to a question, does the AI take into account the existence of the Palace Guard, when deciding if its attack on the capital has a chance to succeed? I know from experience the AI is very well aware for example of the Spartan special building in the capital of Sparta, but I have come to the conclusion Palace Guard is not something the AI really considers (then again, the Palace Guard alone isn't worth that much, but when the capital is also garrisoned by Heavy Infantry led by a defensive leader, the relative power of the Palace Guard goes up (Palace Guard is not that good at dealing out damage, but they are excellent at eating up hits without dying on first round of combat)).

The AI factors the triggered defenders yes, but as a power rating. There is no analysis of the actual unit, how can it be used or how good it is.

Pocus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:47 am The AI factors the triggered defenders yes, but as a power rating. There is no analysis of the actual unit, how can it be used or how good it is.

Ok, that explains it. The Palace Guards each can take three hits before they croak, which is their "thing" in my opinion. They are not that good alone, but with together with garrisoned Heavy Infantry led by a defensive leader the Palace Guards become much more valuable -> it is hard to break such a garrison on first round (and if the possible skirmishers happen to have a good day, the garrison might even win the first round (as happened in the Turn 24/25 Roman assault of this mini-AAR; and if the garrison happens to win, then if there are loads of urban militia present, the rout can become rather nasty for the assaulter).

What I fail to understand is how you kept the Romans from declaring war until turn 24. None of my attempts lasted more than about 15-18 turns.

honvedseg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:30 pm What I fail to understand is how you kept the Romans from declaring war until turn 24. None of my attempts lasted more than about 15-18 turns.

You did conquer the north and build up your army? The AI does not declare war (especially if it already is at war with somebody else) on a country that appears to be stronger or of equal strength. Check the ledger, when you see Rome gain a clear advantage in Land Power, you know the DOW is imminent.

Did you use the Regional decissions to your advantage? Especially the "Hire Local troops" is excellent to build up your power score (just remember to use it when inside Italia Superior so you get the excellent Italian infantry); it is costly yes, but the regional troops have high power score (plus they are great at sieges, both when sieging the celts in north, and when defending sieges against Rome later on).

That's all these little touches and subtleties, and Swuul obviously master them, that adds up I believe and make the difference between ending as a client-state of Rome and teaching them a lesson

Ah, "hire local troops"? That must be the difference.

Over the weekend, I did another Etruscan run, split the army at the start (both Heavy Infantry and most of the good stuff sent north, with a few light troops left to hold the capital) and conquered Liguria. I added a few more skirmishers and another couple of Medium Infantry units. Meanwhile, Rome took Picenium on turn 4 and the region north of it on turn 6, so I raced my forces back to the capital. My Barracks wouldn't complete for another turn or two (despite pumping most of my manpower into finishing it), since it took a few turns until the option to build it came up (in most tries, it never did).

On turn 7, Rome declared war, and on turn 8 they attacked, defeating my garrison (including both of my Heavy Infantry and the automatic capital guard units) in EVERY matchup except one, where they tied. THAT was the only "hit" I put on their entire army (they took one or two additional fatigue points), and my main army was driven from the province in disarray. My second stack arriving an impulse later had ZERO chance to even damage a single unit, and was crushed, with the loss of almost every unit. Essentiallly "game over" at that point.

Without a barracks or other structure to allow Heavy Infantry, I was at a total loss as to how to deal with it. I'll need to check out the "hire local troops" option, which I assumed from the name meant weak (and totally useless) militia units.

honvedseg wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:33 pm I'll need to check out the "hire local troops" option, which I assumed from the name meant weak (and totally useless) militia units.

No, it means you will get two of the provincial units, of whatever province you happen to be in at that moment. 100 bucks for two provincial units isn't actually money that well spent usually (unless you have already recruited plenty provinvcial units from that units, ie so that they already cost more than 50 each (or unless the provincial units happen to be 'phants, as the "Hire local troops" is then always more cost-efficient), but when you do not have the province formed yet,it is a shortcut for those troops.

Check viewtopic.php?f=534&t=95294 for the list of what units you get in each province (or Region in the case of "Hire Local troops"). You get the Italin Foot (elite medium infantry) from Italy Superior and Italy Inferior, and the elite medium cavalry from Cisalpina (so it will be useful later on when you go on attack, but not really useful for the defensive phase of operations).

Other good regional decissions to use early on as Ertruria (to boost your nominal power score) are "Federate barbarians" (get citizens, and chance for troops too, to the region) and "Bolster colony" (for a palisade, troops, and sheep).

Also, don't leave anything at start to Ertruria. Very important to get experience stars for all your troops (to boost the nominal power score, which the AI is fond of checking). Also, very very important you have the Heavy Infantry with the defensive leader (the last thing you want to do is to shuffle command on the turn before Rome attacks, as you will fight at a -20% disadvantage). Also #3, do not underestimate the value of skirmishers, especially in city fights. Urban militia is light troops, but they are useless as skirmishers, they are only good in sucking siege hits and dealing casualties in pursuit; you need actual skirmishers to cause fatigue hits (so that your HI/MI and Palace Guards have a better chance to survive the first round).

Again, I can not stress enough the importance of this, what ever you do, do NOT shuffle command after first turn, if you shuffle command when war is imminent, you are effectively commiting seppuku in front of the enemy. Give the future garrison troops (which HAS TO include your two HI, and preferably at least three skirmishers) to your defensive general on Turn 1, and after that DO NOT shuffle command anymore (unless when you get to recruit the provincial infantry with the regional decission -> give the two first you get to the defensive general, so that he commands 2 HI, 2 MI, and 3 or 4 skirmishers, together with the two Palace Guards you will have a rock-hard frontline of six units, when the Romans attempt the assault (the frontage will be exactly six squares wide)).
EDIT: This means you do NOT add the Palace Guards and other auto-appearing units under your defensive general even if the Romans do not immediatly assault. They will be fine as a separate command (without a general), because your defensive leader will have command of all units in the assault anyway (if you shuffle the units, you lose 20% effectiveness for the assault, and you can kiss your butt goodbye)-

No need to keep stressing about reassigning generals at the last minute, I'm well aware of the penalty. That's not the issue. Problem is, I never seem to have time to gain experience for my Heavy Infantry before Rome declares war, and they get crushed in spite of all the defensive bonuses. The more resilient elite guard units manage to hold their own, or close to it (one tied, one lost by a single point), but when the units on their flanks are broken, pursuit follows, my best units are eliminated, and then my capital is under siege with no hope of relief. I've also got more than enough skirmishers to cover the frontage, but without sufficient experience, they have NEVER inflicted fatigue on the well-protected Roman units. Generally, it's effectively been "game over" in about 10-12 turns, with that last example only taking 8, and that's nowhere near enough time to take on the Celtic units to the north, other than one or two independent regions along the coast.

Oddly, in one of the campaigns where I tried a Macedonian Successor state, Rome failed to take Picenium on the first try, and then ended up at war with the Greek states to the south as well, so Etruria (AI controlled) had about 20 turns to expand in the north before Rome declared war and crushed them anyway. Rome never failed like that while I was running the Etruscans myself. At this point, it appears to be purely a matter of luck as to whether Etruria can get the breaks needed to fend off Rome, and I'm tired of restarting to get those conditions.

I just tried two Ertruria runs, where I did nothing else but press End Turn. On first attempt Rome declared war on Ertruria on turn 16, on second attempt on turn 15 (the Celtics declared war in this one on turn 9, and had taken one of the Ertrurian regions). That was when I did absolutely nothing to boost my power score, or improve my economy, or improve the diplomatic situation; just end turn, end turn until Rome declares war.

If possible, could you upload a save of one of your games where Rome declared war before turn 10? I'd sure like to take a look at such a save, as it is something I don't recall to have ever seen.

Now for something completely different. Take Sardes. You should be able to do that successfully by turn 5 and then declare war on Carthage and take the rest of the island. Make it a province and move your Capital there. The AI may just overlook your new sea faction long enough for you to get somewhere. I won the game starting as Rhodus. Good luck!

Gray Fox wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:23 pm Now for something completely different. Take Sardes. You should be able to do that successfully by turn 5 and then declare war on Carthage and take the rest of the island. Make it a province and move your Capital there. The AI may just overlook your new sea faction long enough for you to get somewhere. I won the game starting as Rhodus squardle Good luck!

I'll try with Rhodus too, good luck!

Rome Legion is just to beastly. I really don't think so they should Ranged attack that strong as they have.
Rome should rely more on logistic and ability to mobilize large armies and replace losses than having elite units that stomp everything.