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Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:08 am
by rbodleyscott
Geffalrus wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:53 pm
Not seeing this mentioned, so just in case:
- Dart units, specifically Legio Palatina and Comitatensis, need their point costs adjusted to bring them in line with Auxilia Palatina.
- LP and Comit both cost exactly the same as their impact foot counterparts, despite having less POA and utility in most situations.
- Meanwhile, the Aux Pal ARE properly priced as they are slightly cheaper than their equivalent (Vet Dailami Foot).
- Suggested change: make LP 72 points and Comits 45. A 6 point decrease to match the AP 54 vs Vet Dailami 60.
Standard sized infantry units are only charged 6 points for Darts. So as it would not be right to make darts free (light spear and darts is certainly better than light spear only), the most I could justify reducing them by would be 3 points. And that would also affect Auxilia Palatina.
That would mean the following changes:
Legio Palatina: 78 -> 75
Legio Comitatensis: 51 -> 48
Aux Palatina: 54 -> 51
However, if, in addition we reduced the cost of being Drilled for HF with Light Spear from 6 to 3, we get:
Legio Palatina: 78 -> 72
Legio Comitatensis: 51 -> 45
Aux Palatina: 54 -> 51
AND
'Abid al-shira 42 -> 39
which is a bonus.
Are there any other HF with Light Spear?
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:31 am
by rbodleyscott
Another major issue is the (excessive) cost effectiveness of Veteran Muslim Spearmen.
In Medieval we have increased the cost by 6 points per unit, by increasing the cost of Superior Protected Infantry if they are Offensive Spearmen. (Justified, if justification is needed, by their very high resilience).
If we did this in Ancients the following changes would occur:
Veteran Muslim Spearmen 54 -> 60
Dismounted Protected Cavalry (Above Average) 48 -> 51
Dismounted Protected Lancers (Above Average) 48 -> 51
Veteran Protected Hoplites 60 -> 66
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:48 pm
by Geffalrus
Hmmmmm it still seems to me like Aux Pal already are discounted:
Vet Dailami Foot - impact, superior, protected - 60 points
Aux Pal - light spear/darts, superior, protected - 54 points
Meanwhile you have:
Legion - impact, superior, armored - 78 points
Legio Palatina - light spear/darts, superior, armored - 78 points
So two pairs of units with parallel capabilities, but not parallel costs. And I made sure to compare medium to medium and drilled HF to drilled HF.
The only other superior light spear foot I know of is Vet Italian Foot (medium armored 66 points). Converting to drilled HF gets you to 72 points (+6), so I can see what you’re saying about darts needing to cost something.
A 3 point discount for darts would work for me, though I don’t think that needs to apply to Aux Pal as they’re already heavily discounted. LP may never be viable since 70 points is a lot to spend on a defensive unit. Aux pal have always been the best dart value, because the extra poa vs cavalry covers up their substantial cavalry weakness (on paper).
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:07 pm
by SnuggleBunnies
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:08 am
Legio Palatina: 78 -> 75
Legio Comitatensis: 51 -> 48
Aux Palatina: 54 -> 51
However, if, in addition we reduced the cost of being Drilled for HF with Light Spear from 6 to 3, we get:
Legio Palatina: 78 -> 72
Legio Comitatensis: 51 -> 45
Aux Palatina: 54 -> 51
AND
'Abid al-shira 42 -> 39
Auxilia Palatina really don't need to be any cheaper, they're already an auto-buy. 75 is still terrible expensive for LP, I'd still never take them tbh. Comitatensis I feel neutral about 45 vs 48. Abid al-shira dropping to 39 is fine by me, they are a hard unit to use.
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:09 pm
by SnuggleBunnies
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:31 am
Veteran Muslim Spearmen 54 -> 60
Dismounted Protected Cavalry (Above Average) 48 -> 51
Dismounted Protected Lancers (Above Average) 48 -> 51
Veteran Protected Hoplites 60 -> 66
Most of this looks good, but I don't know about veteran hops being 66... are they in fact only 6 points worse than a unit of pike phalanx? On the other hand, they do seem 8pts better than an average warband... so overall I'd be okay with this, as the first 3 changes seem solid.
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:46 pm
by Geffalrus
Is there a particular reason why the Aux Pal were already 54 points?
I think a general rebalancing of Darts to 3 points cheaper than Impact Foot makes the most sense when I compare Offensive and Defensive Spears. Defensive spears are generally 6 points cheaper, but they're also strictly worse than off spears in terms of pure POA on impact when charging. Darts are worse than impact foot when charging in all infantry situations (lower poa and no cohesion penalty), but are equal (aka both are meh) when charging cavalry. Taking charges is more complicated in that they're slightly worse when charged by infantry (no cohesion penalty), but better POA vs. cavalry charges.
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:50 am
by rbodleyscott
Geffalrus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:46 pm
Is there a particular reason why the Aux Pal were already 54 points?
Here is the existing Points chart:
- Ancients Points Chart.jpg (246.96 KiB) Viewed 4189 times
Code: Select all
• All costs are per 100 UnitSize except for Light Foot and Light Horse, which are costed per 50 UnitSize.
• *1 point off FOGAM as they are not perceived as being as good as lancers. BUT, cost 1 point per base if light spear, bow LH.
• +2 extra per base for Determined Foot.
• -1 discount per base for close combat (non-missile) units without any impact capability e.g. units with swordsmen capability only.
• 8% overall unit discount for 3 deep impact foot, spears or heavy weapon, rounded to nearest whole number. (No discount for pikes or Mob)
• -3 unit discount for 2-deep Warrior, Impact Foot, Swordsmen to allow for Unmanoeuvrability. Likewise Poeni Foot, who are Average, but whose Experience of 50 makes them Unmanoeuvrable.
• 50% lancers cost as if 100% lancers as they have full effect.
• “Horse Archers” for Armour cost purposes means ones without any Impact capability – i.e. 100% Bow, Swordsmen only.
• Costing 50% bow units.
---o Cost infantry as 67% bow if they have full impact and melee capability
---o Cost infantry as 50% bow if they do not have full impact and melee capability.
---o Cost mounted as 67% bow if they are Superior or can evade.
---o Cost mounted as 33% bow if they are Average and cannot evade.
So Auxilia Palatina are:
Superior Protected Foot 7
Swordsmen 1
Darts 1
Light Spear 0
= 9 * 6 = 54
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:03 am
by Paul59
So Auxilia Palatina are not discounted, it is the Veteran Dailami Foot who get a markup.
This additional points cost for "Superior or better, non-deep, less than armoured Impact foot" was brought in with update 1.5.12. I think because players were saying they were too cost effective.
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:13 am
by rbodleyscott
Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:03 am
So Auxilia Palatina are not discounted, it is the Veteran Dailami Foot who get a markup.
This additional points cost for "Superior or better, non-deep, less than armoured Impact foot" was brought in with update 1.5.12. I think because players were saying they were too cost effective.
It was mainly because Zealots were deemed over-cost-effective, but we try to be consistent and not just target individual units.
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:47 pm
by Gaznak
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:08 am
Are there any other HF with Light Spear?
Assyrian heavy foot and guards I think is it.
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:11 am
by rbodleyscott
Gaznak wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:47 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:08 am
Are there any other HF with Light Spear?
Assyrian heavy foot and guards I think is it.
Hmm. Assyrians hardly need a boost!
Re: Unit Cost Revisions
Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:42 pm
by SnuggleBunnies
What if you dropped the cost of darts to .5 for hf? Then AP stay the same, LC drop to 48 and LP to 75. Or make darts free for HF, then you get 45 and 72.