Slitherine

Otherwise known as: The Failure of Fallback

Lancers face off against nasty infantry, nasty infantry charge. Some lancers bounce back, but one bunch of idiots decides to stick around for the melee. I'm not going to show you the aftermath, because it's far too graphic. To summarize, they immediately fragged and then broke when another unit charged them.

Is this just an RNG thing where sometimes lancers choose suicide over falling back? Or is there some invisible ZOC thing I'm not seeing?

Geffalrus wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:54 pm Is this just an RNG thing where sometimes lancers choose suicide over falling back? Or is there some invisible ZOC thing I'm not seeing?

RNG

Actually I defeated the Byzantines with the Frankish before.Just use the mixed army of massed mounted lancers and dismounted lancers(Armoured&Unarmoured).Dismounted lancers can do well in foot combats with the skutatoi and you can field more mounted lancers than Byzantines that can easily overwhelm them on the flanks.

@Geffalrus : you shouldn't be upset when a unit of yours doesn't do what you want it to do. Quite the opposite. That's fun. That adds spice to your battle : just one more obstacle on your way. If units mechanically did the same thing on and on, as expected, there wouldn't be no surprise, no fun

(And the same thing happens to your opponents. Favourably and unfavourably...)

(+ not-mechanical units are realistic)

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:36 am @Geffalrus : you shouldn't be upset when a unit of yours doesn't do what you want it to do. Quite the opposite. That's fun. That adds spice to your battle : just one more obstacle on your way. If units mechanically did the same thing on and on, as expected, there wouldn't be no surprise, no fun

(And the same thing happens to your opponents. Favourably and unfavourably...)

(+ not-mechanical units are realistic)

Fair. Though the question of predictability does make me think back to original Medieval Total War and how one difference between Byzantine cavalry and Western Knights was that while the knights were more powerful, the disciplined Byzantine cavalry were less likely to uncontrollably charge or pursue enemy units. Predictably vs power.

Anyway, I’m fine with chaos so long as I know it’s RNGesus and - not - me misunderstanding a rule. In this case, am I seeing the ZOC correctly. Incidentally, another lancer got in trouble specifically because another lancer fell back into their retreat path. That made sense to me. A good move by my opponent.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:03 pm Actually I defeated the Byzantines with the Frankish before.Just use the mixed army of massed mounted lancers and dismounted lancers(Armoured&Unarmoured).Dismounted lancers can do well in foot combats with the skutatoi and you can field more mounted lancers than Byzantines that can easily overwhelm them on the flanks.

Normal defensive spears at 36 points are good value vs skutatoi at 47 points provided you get into melee ASAP. Same with your lancers. The goal of the Byzantine is to keep you at range as long as possible. Frank’s and Croats is a potentially tough match for both sides depending on terrain and army comp. Theoretically, thematic lancers are good value zoc locking 72 point spears……unless they fail to fall back, in which case they’re super dead. I see a lot of players ally with Muslim armies that provide cheaper Bedouin lancers who are the best zoc lock value.

The main weakness or challenge of the Byzantine army is their tendency to pay for capabilities they don’t actually need or use. Hybrid lancers and skutatoi trapped in melee run the risk of wasting points spent on their fancy bows.

Geffalrus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:24 pm

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:03 pm Actually I defeated the Byzantines with the Frankish before.Just use the mixed army of massed mounted lancers and dismounted lancers(Armoured&Unarmoured).Dismounted lancers can do well in foot combats with the skutatoi and you can field more mounted lancers than Byzantines that can easily overwhelm them on the flanks.

Normal defensive spears at 36 points are good value vs skutatoi at 47 points provided you get into melee ASAP. Same with your lancers. The goal of the Byzantine is to keep you at range as long as possible. Frank’s and Croats is a potentially tough match for both sides depending on terrain and army comp. Theoretically, thematic lancers are good value zoc locking 72 point spears……unless they fail to fall back, in which case they’re super dead. I see a lot of players ally with Muslim armies that provide cheaper Bedouin lancers who are the best zoc lock value.

The main weakness or challenge of the Byzantine army is their tendency to pay for capabilities they don’t actually need or use. Hybrid lancers and skutatoi trapped in melee run the risk of wasting points spent on their fancy bows.

Yeah,mixed skutatoi is pretty weak in close combat versus other spear-armed footmen but good at counter cavalry(Normal lancers and other cavalry with light spears).Because they have relatively little chance to disrupt the skutatoi at impact,and most of them are armoured&protected which make them vulnerable from shootings by skutatoi(Mixed).

Yeah they are generally pretty awesome vs. most cavalry unless they're facing good quality shooting cavalry like Steppe or Persian horse archers. In those cases it's a bit of a coin flip depending on who sank more points into ranged capabilities - good shooty cav costs more than skutatoi, but those lists can spend all their points on such cavalry, while the Byzantines don't have an infinite supply of mixed skutatoi. I mean, it's still better than sitting there tanking arrows with - no - way to shoot back.

Oddly enough the match that gave the above pictures also happened to feature the first time I'd ever seen a lancer disrupt skutatoi on the charge. Low odds for sure, but man does it surprise you when the low odds turn up. Raw skutatoi are supremely cost effective against cavalry, but need to be careful when facing superior lancers with a general. Their 75 poa on impact can be overwhelmed by the superior + general poa of the lancers out in the open.