Slitherine

Ok so I am about to have a baby. Well not me but my wife.

During the time I am going to take some time to process this.

So I just finished my playthrough of BE 2.0 on my channel.

So much fun.

I am going to try again but on Field Marshal this time and starting in Poland.

So here is what I need feed back on.

1st: Do you want me to see me play McGuba's 2.3 or 2.3 with Locarnus's add on?

2nd: Which should be the 5 units I use to build up during the playthrough?
You start Poland with 3 tanks, 1 Fighter, and 1 Bomber.

I want to build up different units, but which 5 units?

Feed me. Thanks for the help.

My addon is certainly more experimental.
The whole point of it was to explore different solutions to balancing and PzC engine workaround problems.
Some of those approaches may improve the experience, some may not work out, and sometimes fixes to one aspect create balancing issues for another.
For most it will probably depend on the personal preferences of the players.

In general there are more liberties and outliers (eg special units). Though naturally those are hard to balance with an engine not meant for such large maps, thus they are easier to abuse without some house rules. But of course the Germans were famous for such special units and imho they are part of the WW2 appeal (and many probably were not worth the resources in the final analysis).

Ad 1.
So imho BE 2.3 is certainly more polished, as it builds upon all the feedback of previous versions that were built with the same design philosophy in mind.
And most people here are probably familiar with either BE 2.3 or BE 2.2 itself:
a) Thus I would recommend voting for BE 2.3 alone, if people want to compare their own BE 2.3 experience with the one goose_2 will have (as well as BE 2.0 vs BE 2.3 from goose_2's perspective). To see the exact same mod they are familiar with from a different perspective.
b) On the other hand I would recommend voting for BE 2.3 + Locarnus addon, if people want to have a comparison between the BE 2.3 they are familiar with and the probably unfamiliar BE 2.3 + Addon (and thus allowing a discussion of the "experiments"). To get a taste of a different flavor compared to what they are familiar with.

As the author of the addon, I naturally vote for option 2, BE 2.3 + Addon.
Imho BE 2.3 is very much visible even with the addon, for the comparison to the BE 2.0 playthrough and the "different perspective of the familiar". While experiments can only contribute to the overall development, if they are reviewed and tested for their advantages and disadvantages.

Ad 2.
For the core build up I would prefer some balance between roleplaying and efficiency.
1 fighter (Bf 109)
- self-explanatory
1 fighter-bomber (Bf 110 was a really solid multirole plane in the early war)
- upgradeable to eg Fw 190, either fighter (only with addon) or fighter-bomber variant (with and without addon) later on
1 Panzer III
- later cheaply upgradeable to Panther (only without addon)
- cheaply upgradeable between Panzer III and Flammpanzer III, Stug III, StuH 42, StuIG 33B variants (only with addon), perhaps start with StuG III B instead of Panzer III in France?
1 Panzer IV
- self-explanatory
- cheaply upgradeable between Panzer IV and all the variants based on that chassis (only with addon), eg Nashorn, Jagdpanzer IV, Hummel, Brummbär, the various Flakpanzers and so on
1 Other unit
- could be an efficiency or a flavor unit
- eg Stuka or Panzer 38(t) (with upgrade path to Marders), or perhaps an arty?

From what I had put on youtube:

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Just a few quick thoughts on the units in Poland:
- You are given three core tanks, one with a hero plus one fighter plus one bomber
- For the tanks, most people keep the one with hero and upgrade it to something better quickly after Poland. For the other two, the question is if you want to sell them almost green after Poland and buy new better ones (less prestige spent than if you just upgrade), not sure if PzIII are still available to buy at this stage as they have a transition path to Panther later on. PzIV help in France and also in Greece but are a dead end in Russia eventually
- For the planes, some people sell the bomber and buy another fighter instead, the bomber is helpful but two fighters might be better for Russia I think
- Not sure if possible anymore but in the past you could also enter Barbarossa with only two tanks and three planes/fighters
So this is what comes to mind to think about... I haven't played version 2.3 yet

As always, different opinions will exist on this as people have different experiences and styles...

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So I played Poland to Crete now with version 2.3 at FM...

It seems in Russia you can either deploy up to five ground units or up to five air units, i.e. there are five spots each on the map but you can only deploy five in total

My choice: 3 PzIIIH and 2 Bf 109-F4... However, I have no idea when to play the big map?!

@PeteMitchell: How much prestige do you have at the start of Barbarossa, after coming from Poland?
Was the Panther upgrade path the deciding reason for going with 3xPanzer III?

Around 5750

I did not play it to the extreme (e.g. in France)... looking at Uhu's 7575 two weeks ago, I know more should be possible!

Yes, due to the Panther upgrade path... could be wrong given that it comes fairly late...

PeteMitchell wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:21 pm Around 5750

I did not play it to the extreme (e.g. in France)... looking at Uhu's 7575 two weeks ago, I know more should be possible!

Yes, due to the Panther upgrade path... could be wrong given that it comes fairly late...


PzC BE 2.3 Barbarossa Deployment.png

How come only 1 tank has a hero. I see that 1 unit has the Knights Cross but no heroes. How many kills do you need to acquire to get heroes?

I think first random hero can appear after 30 kills instead of 50.

The fighter has the iron cross 1st class.

goose_2 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:26 pm

PeteMitchell wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:21 pm Around 5750

I did not play it to the extreme (e.g. in France)... looking at Uhu's 7575 two weeks ago, I know more should be possible!

Yes, due to the Panther upgrade path... could be wrong given that it comes fairly late...


PzC BE 2.3 Barbarossa Deployment.png

How come only 1 tank has a hero. I see that 1 unit has the Knights Cross but no heroes. How many kills do you need to acquire to get heroes?

The one tank starts out with the hero.
First hero is between 30 and 100 kills, afair.

The problem is that you only have 2 or 3 scenarios to build up kills with your tanks. If you sell tanks before rebuying better ones after Poland, you lose the kills from Poland (but gain back the prestige costs of the earlier models). So only France and Mediterranean left. If you upgrade instead, you keep the Poland kills, but lose prestige (without addon the prestige carries over to Barbarossa). Thus if you go the max prestige route, Poland essentially only gives kills and experience to your fighter and your hero tank.

Yes, I sold the two tanks without heroes after Poland and bought new ones in France. In Norway you can only deploy one plane.

goose_2 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:43 pm Ok so I am about to have a baby. Well not me but my wife.

During the time I am going to take some time to process this.

So I just finished my playthrough of BE 2.0 on my channel.

So much fun.

I am going to try again but on Field Marshal this time and starting in Poland.

So here is what I need feed back on.

1st: Do you want me to see me play McGuba's 2.3 or 2.3 with Locarnus's add on?

2nd: Which should be the 5 units I use to build up during the playthrough?
You start Poland with 3 tanks, 1 Fighter, and 1 Bomber.

I want to build up different units, but which 5 units?

Feed me. Thanks for the help.

1st: Voting for McGuba's 2.3

2nd: Regarding the core: my answer is the one more fighter syndrome --- >
You sell one tank, you upgrade the other and your core is 2 tanks, 2 Fighters, and 1 Bomber.
All planes with a little luck can gain heroes.

So I just played the first four pre-scenarios again on FM:
- I tried to play with one fighter and one tactical bomber, I still believe having two fighters is better
- Secondly, I tried to put the hero into a PzIV instead of a PzIII, this could be a reasonable idea and it works well but not sure since later on you possibly have one Panther less

I would even consider a setup with three fighters and two tanks

So I played it one more time on FM...

This time with 3 PzIV plus 2 fighters:
- Experience on the PzIVs: 162, 174 and 178 (with 89, 91 and 79 kills) - not sure why the one with highest experience has least amount of kills?
- Experience on the fighters: 213 and 214 (with 81 and 83 kills)

I got an A2 hero on a tank plus another A2 hero on a fighter.

Prestige is not that much though (after upgrades)...

Curious to hear what other people think?

PeteMitchell wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:58 pm Curious to hear what other people think?

I prefer to use at least a panzer III to upgrade as soon as possible, usually 2 pnz III and 1pnz IV.
On FM I had big troubles with experience, units gains XP at low rate and so it's hard to build Elite forces...

I agree on the PzIII, I just tried the 3 PzIV now, let's see how it goes... will need to see when to finish the big map, hopefully this year

Played first 4 scenarios on FM with 2.3 + addon, not to get an optimal core in terms of experience and kills, but to try out different compositions.

Poland (campaign starting core):
1 Pz I A (A2D1 hero)
1 Pz I B
1 Pz II C r11
1 Bf 109 E-1
1 Bf 110 C multirole tac bomber/fighter
1 Ju 87 B Stuka

Norway (only 2 core units deployable):
1 Bf 109 E-3, upgraded from Bf 109 E-1
1 Bf 110 D multirole tac bomber/fighter, upgraded from Bf 110 C (for longer range)
other reserve units untouched

France:
1 Pz III F (A2D1 hero), costly upgraded from Pz I A (not in same upgrade group, only same class)
1 Bison I (Sturmpanzer I) multirole tank/artillery, upgraded from Pz I B
1 Pz II Flamm r11, upgraded from Pz II C r11
1 Bf 109 E-3
1 Bf 110 C multirole tac bomber/fighter, downgraded again from Bf 110 D (for better initiative, especially in fighter mode)
1 Ju 87 B Stuka

Mediterranean:
1 Stug III B (A2D1 hero) multirole tank/artillery, upgraded from Pz III F
1 Bison I (Sturmpanzer I) multirole tank/artillery
1 Pz II G r11, multirole tank/recon, upgraded from Pz II Flamm r11
1 Bf 109 F-2, upgraded from Bf 109 E-3?
1 Bf 110 E multirole tac bomber/fighter, upgraded again from Bf 110 C
1 Ju 88 A multirole strat/tac bomber, costly upgraded from Ju 87 B Stuka (not in same upgrade group, only same class)

Thoughts on those core units:
The experienced Stug III B + Bison I multirole tank/arty combination is quite something. Should have tried that in France already, with one of them in arty mode and the other in direct fire mode.
Will need some more testing, but if I expect a counterattack from the front, I start with the Bison I in arty mode in the back and use the Stug III B in direct fire mode in the front.
Or if I really want to hurt a more heavily armored target and don't expect a counterattack, I start with the Stug III B in arty mode (even with range 1) and then blast the suppressed, armored enemy with the Bison I in direct fire mode. With the 15cm sIG, the Bison I is basically a thinly armored, limping, half-blind SU-152 in 1940. But a direct hit from a 15 cm shell is still devastating for armored targets and tanks even in the later stages of the war...
Third option would be both in arty mode, either to cover each other or to cover more friendly units.

The Pz II G is pretty versatile, due to being a pretty fast, tracked unit with recon movement, even though it only has a vision range of 2.
On the other hand the Flammpanzer II is quite something as well, making short work of entrenched infantry. Especially when supported by arty. The combination Stug III B, Bison I and Flammpanzer II might be well worth a try sometime in the future.

Anyway, imho a lot more interesting variety of viable options, compared to different ratios of the latest Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs.

The multirole aspect of the Bf 110 is pretty useful and makes this often overlooked backbone of the early Luftwaffe really good. First the supporting fighter duty against the enemy airforce, then the ground support later on. The changing role of these aircraft imho also adds to the immersion. Plans and planned uses of equipment have to adjust to the situation.

The Ju 88 A multirole has some nice suppression options, but I still prefer the Ju 87 B to rack up the kill count in the early campaign. Just for the hero alone, but also because Barbarossa provides a lot of strat bombers, don't really need another one.

Thoughts on Barbarossa:
Any prestige spent before the last turn of the Mediterranean scenario would use old, "tactical" prestige, before it is wiped due to your promotion and prestige becomes a strategic resource.
So costly upgrades (eg from Pz I to Pz IV chassis) should be done before the Mediterranean scenario ends, even if that costs some minimal experience or kills.

If I would continue with this core into Barbarossa, I would probably try to adjust a few things:
Costly upgrade the Ju 88 A back to a Ju 87 B before Mediterranean scenario ends due to the prestige reasons stated above.
Then at the start of Barbarossa upgrade the Ju 87 B to a Ju 87 R for the longer range.
The Bf 110 E can stay, while the Bf 109 F-2 is upgraded to a Bf 109 F-4.

Not so sure about the ground units. Maybe the Stug III B + Bison I + Flammpanzer II is worth a shot. On the other hand, there are already Panzer Is and Panzer IIs in Barbarossa, waiting for cheap upgrades. So after the experiments in the early campaign, one or two Panzer IVs are probably more helpful, given the existing units of Barbarossa. And the expensive upgrades from Bison I and Flammpanzer II don't even cost "strategic" prestige when they are already done before the Mediterranean scenario ends.

For the next addon update, I have to find a way to make that "upgrade before Mediterranean scenario ends" less annoying.
And also have another look at the primary mode of the multirole ground units. Even though there is imho little reason to change back from a Stug III B to a Panzer III H.

PeteMitchell wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:19 pm I agree on the PzIII, I just tried the 3 PzIV now, let's see how it goes... will need to see when to finish the big map, hopefully this year

Hm, yes it will be interesting. The problem with having 3 Pz.IVs is that it will be somewhat difficult to keep them alive until the long gun version arrives. And it's a long way till turn 23 when it happens, almost a whole year in-game. They are very good against soft targets but can be an easy victim to a lucky T-34. Also because of its high price the Pz.IV is a favourite target of the AI air units. (The AI always seems to go for the more expensive units when it has several options to attack.)

And the other problem is if you have more Pz.IVs it means you will have less Pz.IIIs, which are doing better against T-34s in the first year. Additionally, you will have less tanks to upgrade to Panthers later on.

That's why I think the best is to have a mix of both Pz.IIIs and IVs, instead of just focusing on one or the other. But I might be wrong.

Thanks McGuba, this are very good thoughts! I agree on what you described.

Well, let's see, I always played with three PzIII because of the Panthers, let's see how it goes this time I hope the additional A2 hero tank will do ok for a while...