Slitherine

This was actually quite a complicated situation. I will attempt to draw this below
A is a BG of Enemy Bowmen facing to the right
B is a friendly BG of LH facing to the left (i.e. towards the bowmen)
C is a BG of friendly MF also facing towards the Bowmen
D and E are BG's of friendly LH facing to the top of the picture
X is the table side edge

There are no gaps between B, C, D and E.

The bow unit (A) charges and the Light Horse (B) chooses to evade. Where does it go?

OK, looking at the top of P49

If a BG has to burst through friends and there is no room beyond them then it is destroyed.

"If its move does not completely clear all friends then it is places beyond any BG it is currenly bursing through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed and removed from the table."

Two questions:

- Why isn't there room beyond? The side table edge is not impassable terrain

- If I turn 90 degrees when I contact the table edge there is room beyond the table edge

hammy wrote:OK, looking at the top of P49

If a BG has to burst through friends and there is no room beyond them then it is destroyed.

"If its move does not completely clear all friends then it is places beyond any BG it is currenly bursing through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed and removed from the table."

We actually had a similar situation at the club last night but the evaders were light foot.

R L S H

From left to right: R=enemy MF facing right, L=my LF facing left, S=my spears facing left, H= enemy mounted facing down

There is less than a 40mm gap behind the spears so if the LF evade they will not be able to go through the spears as there would an enemy BG that they have to get within 1 MU of to even get one base through the spears. As it happened the LF passed their CT so could stand. I think that had they been forced to evade they would have ended up on the MF foot side of the spear and been hit in the rear for their sins. This is different to the one you have described as it is an interpenetration not bursting through.

Had to rule on this once and my view was ....

It can opt to turn 90 when it hits the table edge or go off table.
If you choose to go off table you lose 1 AP.
If your turn and move completley clears everyone then so be it - to do so it must at least get into the last BG and have room beyond - see below.
If it doesn't you would be destroyed as James says above - but then you may as well choose not to turn 90 and only lose 1 AP instead.
In all cases it bursts through them all and DISRed C, D and E ....

Nice mess Dave. But well done on a fine finish at the IWF. 2 Cv Shooty armies at the top - has this theory from 2 years ago returned I wonder!?!

If a BG has to burst through friends and there is no room beyond them then it is destroyed.
"If its move does not completely clear all friends then it is places beyond any BG it is currenly bursing through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed and removed from the table."

Need to be careful that the latter doesn't actually say the former.

Si

dave_r wrote:Two questions:

- Why isn't there room beyond? The side table edge is not impassable terrain

- If I turn 90 degrees when I contact the table edge there is room beyond the table edge

Sorry, brain melting. Everything is friendly apart from the bow.

I was working on D and E being enemy.

If that is the case then C,D and E are burst through, the evaders either go off the edge of the table or are placed 'above' D or 'below' E having turned 90 at the table edge and made it partly into the BG they are bursting through.

Dan ruled that the LH went off table.

FWIW Nik, Paul and I all agreed with his ruling.

Pete

petedalby wrote:Dan ruled that the LH went off table.

FWIW Nik, Paul and I all agreed with his ruling.

Pete

I have to admit I wouldn't have argued hard against it.

The question boils down to can the evaders turn in the middle of a BG they are bursting through. It isn't covered by the rules either way.

I studied it very carefully and took my time parsing several sentences.

With respect to dave r who wanted the turn while they were interpenetrated in another friendly BG while part way through the evade, I feel that is not allowed as the rules clearly state that a evading partial interpen cannot wheel until it clears. Also the evade rules are imo very clear that the intent is one base width or not at all and no funny ricochet angles.

So I think not 90 degree turn while you are IN another BG.

Then Terry wanted the BG to be lost. But since the rules clearly allowed evades off the side edge I felt that was legal and since it was already declared it was evading that's where it had to go.

So i took my time and called it.

Then I learned that it was the differnece between the army breaking and not.

It was one of the two calls on the top table iirc. I am sure of this one. The other i also ruled against Terry and am less sure of in hindsight but i will need a diagram.

Well they can definitely go off table so you were on solid ground.

As for the turn its debatable on the words either way - its a turn not a wheel. Taken literally you could do it perpendicular to the table edge, as no wheel is needed, but a wheel is otherwise tog et parallel to the table edge. We might want to FAQ that one and I would have no issue not allowing the turn and giving just the one option, nor with allowing it.

I can only assume Terry had decided Dave had decided not to opt to leave the table .. then its destroyed by the looks of it!!

Good to see you ruled against him twice. Actually one of the funny things about being an author is that you remember all the debates, rather than just what went into the final draft. I have had a few where I have forgotten things because they were tight calls, and I remember the discussions of all the options. Makes your head spin sometimes.

Si

Dave had declared the evade, Terry hoped that off the board was not permitted then he got 2 AP.

Well you did say ...

Then Terry wanted the BG to be lost.

Which sounds more of desire than a retionale )

Si

With respect to dave r who wanted the turn while they were interpenetrated in another friendly BG while part way through the evade, I feel that is not allowed as the rules clearly state that a evading partial interpen cannot wheel until it clears. Also the evade rules are imo very clear that the intent is one base width or not at all and no funny ricochet angles.

So I think not 90 degree turn while you are IN another BG.

Then Terry wanted the BG to be lost. But since the rules clearly allowed evades off the side edge I felt that was legal and since it was already declared it was evading that's where it had to go. So I took my time and called it.

Twenty minutes of time!!! Don't think anybody had any problems with the ruling - even Terry agreed later on. Trouble was it had been a very long and very hard game and we were both tired and perhaps not as reasonable as we could have been. Earlier, Terry had been willing to accept that it evaded off table, but then when I claimed it could turn 90 degrees there was a further discussion.

Then I learned that it was the differnece between the army breaking and not.

There were actually three different results possible based on your ruling -

BG can turn 90 degrees and not go off table would mean 10-10
BG can evade off table would mean 11-9 to Terry (the actual ruling and therefore result)
BG can't evade and is destroyed would mean 17-8 to Terry

No pressure there then!

From Simon:
As for the turn its debatable on the words either way - its a turn not a wheel. Taken literally you could do it perpendicular to the table edge, as no wheel is needed, but a wheel is otherwise tog et parallel to the table edge. We might want to FAQ that one and I would have no issue not allowing the turn and giving just the one option, nor with allowing it.

That is quite a fence you are sitting on.... Care to say what the official position is here?

Despite my initial comment where I confused myself with what belonged to who and said the LH were toast I am now sure that the choice is a simple one between evading off table and turning 90 while bursting through.

Looking at the bursting through rules it says "Move the evading or routing BG to the full extent of its move. If its move does not completely clear friends, it is placed beyond any BGs it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed..."

My current take on these words is that the evaders make their move, their move can include a turn at the edge of the table and if that move is far enough to completely clear all the obstructing BGs then it is fine and appears on the edge of the table. If its move is not far enough to clear then it has to be placed 'beyond' the BGs it is bursting through. I think that as to the side of is not beyond that if the move is not long enough to fully clear obstructions down the table edge it has to go off table but if the move is long enough to clear then it is OK.

I can't see anything in the evade rules that prevents a turn when 'inside' an enemy BG but it would IMO be very hard to argue that ending up above or below as per the original diagram is 'beyond' and if you don't have enough move to clear then you must be placed 'beyond'

Go on then find holes in that argument chaps.

Looking at the bursting through rules it says "Move the evading or routing BG to the full extent of its move. If its move does not completely clear friends, it is placed beyond any BGs it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed..."

My current take on these words is that the evaders make their move, their move can include a turn at the edge of the table and if that move is far enough to completely clear all the obstructing BGs then it is fine and appears on the edge of the table. If its move is not far enough to clear then it has to be placed 'beyond' the BGs it is bursting through. I think that as to the side of is not beyond that if the move is not long enough to fully clear obstructions down the table edge it has to go off table but if the move is long enough to clear then it is OK.

Because the Light Horse units D and E above are facing up - therefore if you move them "beyond" the BG then they would not be off the table?

dave_r wrote:

Looking at the bursting through rules it says "Move the evading or routing BG to the full extent of its move. If its move does not completely clear friends, it is placed beyond any BGs it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed..."

My current take on these words is that the evaders make their move, their move can include a turn at the edge of the table and if that move is far enough to completely clear all the obstructing BGs then it is fine and appears on the edge of the table. If its move is not far enough to clear then it has to be placed 'beyond' the BGs it is bursting through. I think that as to the side of is not beyond that if the move is not long enough to fully clear obstructions down the table edge it has to go off table but if the move is long enough to clear then it is OK.

Because the Light Horse units D and E above are facing up - therefore if you move them "beyond" the BG then they would not be off the table?

To me beyond means "on the other side" not "next to"

be⋅yond  /biˈɒnd, bɪˈyɒnd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [bee-ond, bi-yond] Show IPA
–preposition 1. on, at, or to the farther side of: Beyond those trees you'll find his house.
2. farther on than; more distant than: beyond the horizon; beyond the sea.
3. outside the understanding, limits, or reach of; past: beyond comprehension; beyond endurance; beyond help.
4. superior to; surpassing; above: wise beyond all others.
5. more than; in excess of; over and above: to stay beyond one's welcome.

–adverb 6. farther on or away: as far as the house and beyond.

—Idiom7. the beyond, a. that which is at a great distance.
b. Also, the great beyond. the afterlife; life after death.

There is no way that the evasers could be beyond the BGs they are burting through and still on the table. If they burts through and have enough move to get to the above or below position then fine, there is no requirement to be beyond. If they don't have the move then the rules clearly say that they must be beyond the BGs they are bursting through.

Once you have turned 90 degrees you are beyond the BG. Nowhere does it say that you have to be beyond from your starting position. You would be beyond once you have turned 90 degrees and moved a bit.

beyond the pale

beyond the pale

Quite

Go on Dave - mention the stragglers!

Pete

That just wouldn't do at all...

Actually, given my normal "hit rate" of remembering to roll for stragglers, I thought the two games out of three I remembered was quite good.

It's a bit tricky though, as mentioned, you only roll for stragglers once all movement is complete, I normally get my flank marchers on first as I need to decide where they are going and what I am going to do.

I then have the entire army left to move, which is usually a tricky affair, which normally means that I have forgotten about the straggling roll when I should do it...