Slitherine

I don't know if this is been talked about but there is a big problem with the POA on the QRS.
In melee it shows almost everyone gets a POA. But it is only a select few (as shown eairler in the book). But the chart in the back of the book and on the QRS are wrong. I have been running a few demos and when a new guy points out the error in strikes me as a problem. Just to make sure I was reading the spread sheet right I showed my Pregnant wife and she read it the same way I did.

My question is: Will there be a fixed QRS? if so it would also be nice to have the turn sequence on the QRS also.
Otherwise it is not bad.

Irondog

You must be reading the QRS very strangely.
The POAs only apply if the text in both left and right column is true:
e.g
Light Spear (foot) + POA unless charging shock mounted.

What do you think the errors are?

As pyruse mentioned there are several different lines that share the big plus POA box but you need to read both sides of the shart together. The reason for the meged boxes is to make the chart less busy, not to change the meaning.

The QRS is only meant to be a reminder, it isn't the rules.

The wording/chart is sometimes simplified in the QRS, which can cause confusion if you treat it as "the rules" rather than merely as a reminder sheet.

In all cases, the charts in the main body of the rules (not the ones at the back of the book) take precedence.

hammy wrote:What do you think the errors are?

Not seen any myself but if you put them on here we can go over them.

I suspect you are reading it wrong or have a faulty version.

There must have been over 50,000+ games now using it.

The one I use is fine.

Give an example and at least we can start by seeing if we have the same one.

Si

irondog068 wrote:Just to make sure I was reading the spread sheet right I showed my Pregnant wife and she read it the same way I did.

I'm sorry? You asked a pregnant woman if a wargames QRS made sense to her?

Fair play for a)getting an answer and b)being able to walk and breath still.

Steve P

irondog068 wrote:If so it would also be nice to have the turn sequence on the QRS also. Otherwise it is not bad.

A turn sequence was considered but as there is a full turn sequence at the back of the rules and a cut down turn sequence really is almost useless it was left out. A turn sequence worth having would have required at least half a page if not a full page.

QRS was upstairs to show her and I wnet to the computer downstairs.
In Impact in the rules Impact foot get ++ against any foot.
Then on the QRS on the any one of these it is for a + in goes from impact foot to Heavy or Scythed charoits With Lances other lances and Hvy/Scythed charoits only in open terrain). but in the rule book for example
Heavy weapon only gets + against any foot. In the QRS it gets a + Against any mounted unless the foot are charging shock mounted, Unless FRG or Sever disorder, unless charging shock mounted.... Well you get the idea.

So, Who is right? The 50,000 using the QRS or the ones using the the chart in the book? If the QRS is indeed wrong is there a new one coming out? Or should I just shrink copy and paste together the right charts and pass them out at the next game?

I will sit down and wait for my answer.

Irondog

Look it is not that crazy to use skills from the outside world when trying to understand a game....such as reading a spreadsheet in a way that is considered/normal universal. Every other part of the chart has a a single row. In the university, business, and inventory world, someone would look at the spreadsheet and think the same thing that Irondog did. It is also not that crazy considering the chart has an "any one of" section, a "only in open terrain" section, etc.

I don't understand why someone would say this is just a reference and should not be treated like the rules? Is this not a cheat sheet for the rules?

As some people answered in my previous forum post question, people in this post can simply explain that the poa only works from the single left column row line to the corresponding right column row line, regardless if the center column has blocking lines or not. In other words left column row 2 does not apply to right column row 3.

Irondog is not the only one who thought this, there are plenty of people who have played this way including people I have never met before from other towns. I myself get frustrated being the rules lawyer explaining they are wrong with the rules.

Thousands of people may have played the game "correctly", but I thought the point of this forum was to encourage people to play the game, not to insult them based on an honest misunderstanding. There are plenty of rules questions on this board so it is not crazy for people to not understand every rule. I like this game, and there are plenty of games that have far worse rules than FOGs. However, there are plenty of instances where the FOG rules need some serious amount of refining. Rip on me if you wish but all of these questions on this forum reflect that people who have read the rules do not universally understand them the same way. I for one want more people to play the game and I don't think fanboy elitism helps recruit people.

Si, Hammy, Terry, Richard, Nik, JD, the above is what we should be trying to avoid. Just because you have answered the same question lots of times does not mean they have seen that answer.




I myself am too lazy to answer

Thousands of people may have played the game "correctly", but I thought the point of this forum was to encourage people to play the game, not to insult them based on an honest misunderstanding.

Don't see anyone doing that above, and if that is the impression certainly not the case. Sorry if so. It is more likely something wrong with his QRS or his way of reading it - hence me asking for an example. Then we can see if he's reading it wrong or it is wrong. With no example its question I can't answer. That's all.

In Impact in the rules Impact foot get ++ against any foot.
Then on the QRS on the any one of these it is for a + in goes from impact foot to Heavy or Scythed charoits With Lances other lances and Hvy/Scythed charoits only in open terrain). but in the rule book for example
Heavy weapon only gets + against any foot. In the QRS it gets a + Against any mounted unless the foot are charging shock mounted, Unless FRG or Sever disorder, unless charging shock mounted....

Ok. On my rulebook HW get a + at impact vs any foot. Agreed. On the QRS I have the same. The bundled + in the middle was an aesthetic tidy up that made it into Impact with a vengeance, but not the others for some reason (perhaps as there was a less obvious mass to bundle). Read everything as a line item with troop on left. poa in middle, and conditions on the right. Is you QRS then the same as the book? Mine is.

Hope that helps

Si

PS James I wonder if its worth putting the lines back in?

We never had this misunderstanding, but we experienced some problems with QRS too. Perhaps you could group POA in a different manner. You could split table in 2 sections, one for a + POA and the other one for ++ POA. Then you can make 2 columns, first with weapons and second with conditions to apply. At last, you can use a code to substitute "Any one of..." and "Only in Open Terrain", something like Italic for first one, bold for the second and bold italic for those where both apply, or otherwise a colour code or whatever else. In this way you can keep weapon and condition on the same line. Of course, this is not the only solution, because just a simple re-arrange could work.

shall wrote:The one I use is fine.

That might explain why you win so much tho Si?

Yep all down to my customised QRS with those extra +s for authors!!!

On the QRS I think the team tried several versions and whichever way you do it some people prefer another way. It works fine as far as I can see, although it can be misundertood at first. Its just a tool to remember after all.

Si

johnnyspys wrote:Look it is not that crazy to use skills from the outside world when trying to understand a game....such as reading a spreadsheet in a way that is considered/normal universal. Every other part of the chart has a a single row. In the university, business, and inventory world, someone would look at the spreadsheet and think the same thing that Irondog did. It is also not that crazy considering the chart has an "any one of" section, a "only in open terrain" section, etc.

Nobody is saying that it is crazy to read the chart one way rather than another.

I don't understand why someone would say this is just a reference and should not be treated like the rules? Is this not a cheat sheet for the rules?

The fundamental issue is that the rules were written to be precise and as clear as possible. The QRS was designed to present the rules as well as could be done in a limited space. There are areas on the QRS where things have been phrased differently to allow for less words on one side of the chart or the other or to make sure that the same reasonable size font can be used on a whole table.

As some people answered in my previous forum post question, people in this post can simply explain that the poa only works from the single left column row line to the corresponding right column row line, regardless if the center column has blocking lines or not. In other words left column row 2 does not apply to right column row 3.

Exactly, if you compare the chart in the rules you should see that it is functionally the same as the QRS, just that the QRS has been presented differently.

Irondog is not the only one who thought this, there are plenty of people who have played this way including people I have never met before from other towns. I myself get frustrated being the rules lawyer explaining they are wrong with the rules.

If you find that the QRS is causing you problems you could just photocopy the tables from page 96 and 97.

I for one want more people to play the game and I don't think fanboy elitism helps recruit people.

I am not sure that the replies you are getting are fanbioy ones. My reply is from the point of view of the person who put together the tables for the QRS. I spent a lot of time tweaking wordings and changing formatting so that the QRS could be presented on four sides of paper. Personally I try my hardest to recriut new players and have run several sessions at different clubs with no problems. Obviously this is not your experience.

This is the table as it stands:


Here is the exact same table with no merged box for POA:


Neither of these tables are identical to the table in the main rules or the table in the reference section at the back of the rules.

Yes!!
The bottom one is the way it is supposed to look! Like the book! No increase in font just the proper lines. No copying the rule book and piecing things together. No trying to explain to new guys why they don't get a + for everything. That is all i really asked for. A explanation. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel or piss everyone off who wrote the rules I just want them right so when I run a demo with someone everyone is on the same page and when I hand out a QRS so they can follow along I don't have to explain "Well yes you are reading the spreadsheet right, but the rules say this".

Now if a second one could be done and dare I say a turn sequence (just leave off one of those cool Osprey pictures) it would be great. There are some good points like page number for refrence.

Irondog

irondog068 wrote:Yes!! The bottom one is the way it is supposed to look! Like the book!

Actually the bottom one isn't the same as the book. There are definite changes in some words and some terms have been moved from the left to the right of the table.
If you look at the table in the back of the book you will find the large box with a single + covering multiple lines.
The whole point of the colours on the rows is to make it easier to scan across the table.
Obviously you and your aquaintances find this version of the table confusing.

No trying to explain to new guys why they don't get a + for everything.

I tried to see how the table would work if you counted all the exceptions together and I honestly can;t see how anyone could actually use it that way.
I mean you get POA against any foot, against any mounted except elephants, and against any if no other POA applies but you don't if charging shock mounted or if you are FRG or severly dissordered or is you are <2 ranks of spear or less than 3 ranks of pike and a few more as well.
Are people claiming they can pick and mix and just take any one that they want? Oh I only have 1 rank of spear so I will have a POA against mounted because there is a POA like that next to battlewagons?

I am not trying to reinvent the wheel or piss everyone off who wrote the rules I just want them right so when I run a demo with someone everyone is on the same page and when I hand out a QRS so they can follow along I don't have to explain "Well yes you are reading the spreadsheet right, but the rules say this".

Well you could say this is a quick reference sheet, it is designed to ease play but it is not the full 176 page rule book. Then explain that the QRS tables work as a series of separate lines.

Now if a second one could be done and dare I say a turn sequence (just leave off one of those cool Osprey pictures) it would be great. There are some good points like page number for reference.

I don't know ifthere will be an updated version of the QRS produced. The QRS is not designed as a teaching aid, it is specifically designed for people who know the game but want to check things.

Perhaps there is a place for a introductory sheet. When I run teaching games I print out the different tables as big as I can on a single sheet for each table. It means I can show the relevant table at the relevant point and players aren't hunting around the QRS to find the impact POA table or something.

I will rais it with Slitherine / Osprey and see if they are interested in the idea of a "teaching" sheet. Possibly cut down sheets that only have the relevant POAS would be good or unit specific ability cards explainig what a BG gets POAs against and what it can or can't do.

I like the second idea you post but, having not 1 but 2 wrong QRS sheets (one in the book and 1 online), is still a problem. If I first piscked up the rules I would do exactly as you said, pick any POA that would apply. And if someone pointed out the chart in the front, since it is 1st edition and errors happen We would (and have) said "Well 2 out of the 3 say this so lets go with this" Leading to the problems I have talked about.

I am not alone with this. The chart just needs a little cleaning up and since it is on a spreadsheet all you have to do is put the lines in and re release it. The one in the book is going to be there till a second edition. But if you run into the "Well 2 out of the 3 say this" we would be doing it properly.

Irondog

Hey lets stand back a bit ...

James, a tweak might help cut out such an unusual interpretation.

Irondog a good few 000 people have used the QRS now without any such issues, so to say it is wrong is bit extreme don't you think?

What you are saying is you read it way FFF, which is not a way the team has seen anyone else read it yet.

It went to over 100 people in testing, even before publication, and we got variants of AAA to EEEE and fixed those, but nobody read it the way you have. It's a new variant that's all, so be it.

Now you know to take each line across anyway it is easily fixed by you anyway; and James adding lines back in would remove any such risks in future.

Isn't that it, or am I missing something?

Enjoy the FOG.

Si