Slitherine

My little group has passed around Lake Peipus a few times. I think we all want to be able to win it as Novgorod - partly because of history, partly because of the film history of the battle - and we've all gotten stomped.

It vaguely seems like the head to head losses (modulo hill) to Novgorod make it unlikely to get enough substantial flanking attacks (really the only reliable way for Nov. units to do damage in this fight) to not get knocked out. Anyone have better luck? My intuition is that we're not using the cavalry quite effectively enough, but it seems like a very fine thing compared to the ease of just rushing forward resulting in a solid chance of winning for the opposing force.

mejobo wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 4:42 am My little group has passed around Lake Peipus a few times. I think we all want to be able to win it as Novgorod - partly because of history, partly because of the film history of the battle - and we've all gotten stomped.

It vaguely seems like the head to head losses (modulo hill) to Novgorod make it unlikely to get enough substantial flanking attacks (really the only reliable way for Nov. units to do damage in this fight) to not get knocked out. Anyone have better luck? My intuition is that we're not using the cavalry quite effectively enough, but it seems like a very fine thing compared to the ease of just rushing forward resulting in a solid chance of winning for the opposing force.

What is the question about?

mejobo wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 4:42 am My little group has passed around Lake Peipus a few times. I think we all want to be able to win it as Novgorod - partly because of history, partly because of the film history of the battle - and we've all gotten stomped.

It vaguely seems like the head to head losses (modulo hill) to Novgorod make it unlikely to get enough substantial flanking attacks (really the only reliable way for Nov. units to do damage in this fight) to not get knocked out. Anyone have better luck? My intuition is that we're not using the cavalry quite effectively enough, but it seems like a very fine thing compared to the ease of just rushing forward resulting in a solid chance of winning for the opposing force.

There was at least one victory reported by a Novgorod player in Beta testing, it was against a very experienced player as well. I don't know what tactics he used though.

gribol wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 6:32 am

mejobo wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 4:42 am Anyone have better luck?

What is the question about?

In essence, it seems like the balance is off, both in the sense that it's much easier for one side and in that the historical result is the particularly unlikely one.

However, my sample size is fairly small and involves a somewhat insular group of players (though we do play against others, too, we mostly play the historical scenarios against each other in rotation), so I'm curious if there are other experiences as we may have common gaps in understanding the mechanics.

Paul59 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 9:00 am There was at least one victory reported by a Novgorod player in Beta testing, it was against a very experienced player as well. I don't know what tactics he used though.

What's the sample size like in beta testing?

That would be Cunningcairn wrecking me in both matches of a mirror. Cavalry and missiles used patiently together did me in.

Were your knights unable to cause a cascading route on the infantry line? Losing that infantry line (with your knights charging at ~30-50% win rates against Average troops who also lose in a head to head match up with the opposing Offensive Spears) has seemed extremely likely, and it usually doesn't take long. In every one of our games the Novgorod cavalry have been able to cause many missile losses and (by flanking) win some victories, but it just hasn't made up the difference, and at some point those cavalry are so outnumbered that they themselves get flanked or caught in evasion/pursuit traps.

If I were to guess at a fix with the current troop types, it would probably involve having some additional reserve infantry so that there is just more of a chance to use the cavalry patiently, and less depends on getting lucky with the infantry holding (unexpectedly).

Maybe I did get unlucky, but his infantry held. I thought the scenario was well balanced.

mejobo wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:33 pm In essence, it seems like the balance is off, both in the sense that it's much easier for one side and in that the historical result is the particularly unlikely one.

Well, yes, you are right, that Teutons have got advantage in points (about 2170 to 1900 Novogrodians), and the battle is a little harder, when you are Novogrod.
Novogrod have got a little better position, and they are defending, so its slightly reduces this difference.
My question was maybe because I only played this battle with Novgorod once and won, although it was not easy and pleasant. It often lots depends on luck.

gribol wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 7:42 am

mejobo wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:33 pm In essence, it seems like the balance is off, both in the sense that it's much easier for one side and in that the historical result is the particularly unlikely one.

Well, yes, you are right, that Teutons have got advantage in points (about 2170 to 1900 Novogrodians), and the battle is a little harder, when you are Novogrod.
Novogrod have got a little better position, and they are defending, so its slightly reduces this difference.
My question was maybe because I only played this battle with Novgorod once and won, although it was not easy and pleasant. It often lots depends on luck.

Actually the current points are Teutonic Knights 1954 and Novgorod 1848, and after a unit points revision in the next update the differential will be even less. The Teutonic knights were given slightly more points to compensate for the Novgorodians having the advantage of the slope, and having 8 more units. An advantage in unit numbers is a big bonus in FOG2.

The Epic MP battles are all designed to give both players an equal chance, rather than to replicate the historical outcome, or the historical balance of forces.

Paul59 wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:01 am
Actually the current points are Teutonic Knights 1954 and Novgorod 1848,

Yes, thats my mistake. So the difference in points as not really so big.

Hm, so it seems everyone else in fact is winning as Novgorod! I'm a little skeptical of the reasons given - the positional advantage is present but only reduces the odds of the infantry losing (they are still disadvantaged in every match up unless the Order troops choose not to advance for some reason) and points are famously imprecise, but probably myself and my opponents need to be using the flighty cavalry differently, perhaps with a better understanding of the way the evade/pursuit will lead them. BTW, I understand the objective of the multiplayer battles is to be roughly 50/50, not to replicate the historical results. I'm just more surprised when it seems to swing against the historical victors! Maybe the 6th attempt is the charm...