Slitherine

I was thinking about doing a matchup for the Battle of the Golden Spurs in 1302. That was the Royal French vs the rebellious Flanders cities. However I am having trouble deciding what list to use for Flanders. There is a Low Countries list but it doesn't extend to 1302. It ends in 1274. So what list is best to represent the Flanders forces at the Battle of the Golden Spurs? Right now, I am thinking Low Countries but maybe I am missing something.

Later Low Countries lists will be released with DLCs in the future, but currently the existing Low Countries list would be the most suitable.

Thanks!

I already did Low Countries Campaign and I'll probably do the continuation with Franco-Flemish war too when the proper DLC will be realeased

The problem with the Low Countries list for 1302 is that it is missing the famous Goedendag troops, which I suppose would normally be heavy weapon infantry?

In the Table Top game, the Later Low Country goedendag(1)/plançon à picot/Halberd units were indeed Heavy Weapon. We'll see what Richard will decide to implement in game and how.

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(1) very fun name variants : godendac, godendard, godendart, godendaz, godenhoc, godandart, goedendag...

ahuyton wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:41 pm The problem with the Low Countries list for 1302 is that it is missing the famous Goedendag troops, which I suppose would normally be heavy weapon infantry?

Obviously, the lack of Goedendag men is the main difference between the two lists, but as the later list will not be available until the relevant DLC is released, there isn't much alternative. No other army list contains enough Low Countries spearmen, so unless Jagger2002 wants to do some modding that's his best option.

ahuyton wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:41 pm The problem with the Low Countries list for 1302 is that it is missing the famous Goedendag troops, which I suppose would normally be heavy weapon infantry?

They will mostly be in mixed units with the spearmen, who will get an overlapping bonus for having them. But there is no evidence for their significant use in the period covered by the current list, hence why they don't currently have them.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:59 am

ahuyton wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:41 pm The problem with the Low Countries list for 1302 is that it is missing the famous Goedendag troops, which I suppose would normally be heavy weapon infantry?

They will mostly be in mixed units with the spearmen, who will get an overlapping bonus for having them. But there is no evidence for their significant use in the period covered by the current list, hence why they don't currently have them.

If give the late Flemish spearmen heavy weapon capability then they will be treated as mixed unit,this do give me an idea about the high Medieval spearmen units(Currently).I think we do know the Medieval infantry usually fight with mixed weapons,so maybe should treated the Medieval infantry as mixed unit instead of spearmen only(Similar but rare unit already in FoG II:Ancient,called levy skirmishers,with various weapon capabilities) like spearmen 50%,swordsmen 30% and heavy weapons 20%(Or some more reasonable percents?),treated them as mixed unit will be more historical accurate(Especially for the 13th century).

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:40 am If give the late Flemish spearmen heavy weapon capability then they will be treated as mixed unit,this do give me an idea about the high Medieval spearmen units(Currently).I think we do know the Medieval infantry usually fight with mixed weapons,so maybe should treated the Medieval infantry as mixed unit instead of spearmen only

I think only the mixed bodies of cutting weapons and spears that actually adopted a coordinated aggressive stance in battle will get the heavy weapon capability in game, not the more passive/defensive and less coordinated ones, the latter being thus treated as spearmen. But I may be wrong. It might be a matter of actually-used tactics, not of used weapons, as often in FoG2.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:38 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:40 am If give the late Flemish spearmen heavy weapon capability then they will be treated as mixed unit,this do give me an idea about the high Medieval spearmen units(Currently).I think we do know the Medieval infantry usually fight with mixed weapons,so maybe should treated the Medieval infantry as mixed unit instead of spearmen only

But I may be wrong. It might be a matter of actually-used tactics, not of used weapons, as often in FoG2.

So I think that should be considered,as they were armed with various weapons,fight in tangled melee combats(like the manuscripts from the Maciejowski Bible and others),at least should add some cutthing weapons compabilities for the melee phase but not the impact.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:32 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:38 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:40 am If give the late Flemish spearmen heavy weapon capability then they will be treated as mixed unit,this do give me an idea about the high Medieval spearmen units(Currently).I think we do know the Medieval infantry usually fight with mixed weapons,so maybe should treated the Medieval infantry as mixed unit instead of spearmen only

But I may be wrong. It might be a matter of actually-used tactics, not of used weapons, as often in FoG2.

So I think that should be considered,as they were armed with various weapons,fight in tangled melee combats(like the manuscripts from the Maciejowski Bible and others)

What a strange conclusion !
(quite the opposite of what I meant.)

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:48 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:32 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:38 am

But I may be wrong. It might be a matter of actually-used tactics, not of used weapons, as often in FoG2.

So I think that should be considered,as they were armed with various weapons,fight in tangled melee combats(like the manuscripts from the Maciejowski Bible and others)

What a strange conclusion !
(quite the opposite of what I meant)

Sorry,maybe I was mistaken,but after all,let's wait what will the Mr.RBS say.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:58 am Sorry,maybe I was mistaken,but after all,let's wait what will the Mr.RBS say.

My mistake.

Carrying a weapon (or being depicted with it in a manuscrit) does not mean you actually use it along with a given tactic. In FoG, what matters is the actual tactic of the unit, not the weapons each soldier of this unit has/uses/carries.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:58 am Sorry,maybe I was mistaken,but after all,let's wait what will the Mr.RBS say.

My mistake.

Carrying a weapon (or being depicted with it in a manuscrit) does not mean you actually use it along with a given tactic. In FoG, what matters is the actual tactic, not the weapon the soldiers have/use/carry.

Actually,the levy skirmishers been represented well with the mixed weapons.I think give 60% spearmen capability to the Medieval infantry for impact and melee,the rest of the men with swordsmen and heavy weapon capabilities for melee phase only are more reasonable than whole unit with spearmen only.Because it won't disrupted the tactic they mainly used(Defensive/offensive spearmen on impact) but also got some cutting weapon capabilities in melee(Or overlapping bonus for units smaller than them only),as they always did in history.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 am Carrying a weapon (or being depicted with it in a manuscrit) does not mean you actually use it along with a given tactic. In FoG, what matters is the actual tactic of the unit, not the weapons each soldier of this unit has/uses/carries.

This.

Top down design, not bottom up design.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 am Carrying a weapon (or being depicted with it in a manuscrit) does not mean you actually use it along with a given tactic. In FoG, what matters is the actual tactic of the unit, not the weapons each soldier of this unit has/uses/carries.

This.

Top down design, not bottom up design.

Interesting.But I wonder what will the Late Medieval infantrymen be treated in the FoG II:Medieval if the DLC comes?As in Late Medieval the proportion of heavy weapons were greatly increased among the Infantry ranks compared with the early priods.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:28 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 am Carrying a weapon (or being depicted with it in a manuscrit) does not mean you actually use it along with a given tactic. In FoG, what matters is the actual tactic of the unit, not the weapons each soldier of this unit has/uses/carries.

This.

Top down design, not bottom up design.

Interesting.But I wonder what will the Late Medieval infantrymen be treated in the FoG II:Medieval if the DLC comes?As in Late Medieval the proportion of heavy weapons were greatly increased among the Infantry ranks compared with the early priods.

And so such units will be treated as Heavy Weapon if the majority of men are so armed.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:17 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:28 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 am

This.

Top down design, not bottom up design.

Interesting.But I wonder what will the Late Medieval infantrymen be treated in the FoG II:Medieval if the DLC comes?As in Late Medieval the proportion of heavy weapons were greatly increased among the Infantry ranks compared with the early priods.

And so such units will be treated as Heavy Weapon if the majority of men are so armed.

Thanks for the answer.