Slitherine

I've just reached Sevastopol in GC '42, and have three Panzer IIIJ/1 that I can now upgrade to Panzer IIIN, but given the significant decrease in initiative that comes with the upgrade (from 8 to 5), I'm wondering if it's even worth it? I feel like that decrease in initiative, combined with the decrease in HA will make those tanks a lot less survivable against other tanks. Sure, it has better Close Defense, but I feel like it would still be way better to use infantry in terrain that uses CD (and I have plenty of infantry in my core to use in those situations - 13 in total, including SE units - mostly mountaineers with a couple of pionieres, a bridge engineer and 2 "regular" infantry)

I also have three Panzer IVs in my core (plus one as an SE unit), and earlier in the war, I mostly used those against soft targets and the Panzer IIIs against hard targets, but it seems with the recent upgrades to both, their roles have been reversed. Given that Panzer IIIs now seem more suited to attacking infantry, I guess the drop in initiative won't affect it as much in those situations, but I feel like it will fare a lot worse when it gets attacked by T34s and KV-1s.

Do you guys usually upgrade your Panzer IIIs to IIIN as soon as it becomes available? Does it make them significantly worse off against soviet tanks, or is it worth the trade-off to make them much better vs infantry and in close terrain?

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, once the real long barrel comes for the IV, the roles of III and IV kind of swap until the big cats come... but actually it was the end of the III in reality back then. They used the N version as infantry support and against soft targets as the long 7.5cm barrel didn't fit the III.

However, I only upgrade max 1 or 2 III to N (up until Stalingrad, maybe a bit longer) and keep the rest as M until the Panther comes.

N with defensive heroes are ok but otherwise t-43 will keep attacking them. Better stick to M or IV.

I usually have 3-4 SE Panzer IIINs in my core up until GC43. The reason is I try to fill up my SE core slots with tanks as early as possible to build up their experience so I therefore disband all SE infantry in GC39-40 until I have only tanks as SE units and those tanks are all early model Panzer IIIs as that is all you can get in the early years of the war.

I then start giving them cheap upgrades to later Panzer III models so by the time of Sevastopol they are highly experienced Panzer IIINs with heroes. I never use any variant of the Panzer III in my regular, non-SE, core though. There I stick with Panzer IV and captured Chars (upgraded to Panzer IVG) and KV-1s (upgraded to Tiger/Panther depending on heroes).

I have found Panzer IIINs very useful in urban scenarios such as the Stalingrad scenarios but as PeteMitchell point out they are best used as infantry support tanks and not main battle tanks. I find the AI tends to target them with their best tanks and then they do not cut it but against infantry they are great. They need some babysitting to protect them from enemy tanks otherwise it gets expensive to keep giving them reinforcements and it is probably not sustainable and worth it from a prestige management point of view.

As much as I use them and like them in certain scenarios, in the end Panzer IIIN feels like a bit of a compromise. It is not as good against as infantry as Panzer II Flamm but it has better defensive stats and need less babysitting. It is also not as good as the later models of Panzer IV against enemy tanks but it is better against infantry and in urban scenarios.

By the start of GC43 or the Kursk scenarios at the latest I want to have upgraded them to something which packs more punch against enemy tanks as I find them obsolete by then.

Thanks for the advice. If I play the GC a second time, I'll probably do something similar. It was kind of disappointing to get so many SE infantry, but I had never considered disbanding them in 39/40 to be able to get more SE tanks. For Sevastopol, I upgraded one of my PzIIIJ/1 to a PzIIIN (one with a defensive hero), and it did fairly well in the urban fighting.

It's weird though, my core currently has more soviet tanks than german ones. I've captured 7 or 8 T-34s plus 3 KV-1s (two b and one a). There's also a captured Matilda and Char. The two KV-1b were the best tanks in my core for a while, though I think the Panzer IVs have caught up with them with the recent upgrade to IVG. I've been trying to build up experience on as many of the captured tanks as possible so that I have enough experienced tank units for the battles with 45+ units.

In what ways do you tend to use "main battle tanks" differently from "infantry support tanks"?

You’re welcome. The sort of planning I described becomes very easy when you have have already played the GC so that you know what to expect in terms of scenarios, needed units, free/captured units, scripted hero units, available upgrades etc. I guess it is a sort of “cheating” planning this way since you already know what is going to happen in many cases but it is very difficult NOT to do it .

Regarding the SE infantry you do not have to disband them (unless you want the prestige) until you reach the Norway scenarios as it is only then the SE Panzer III becomes available. I usually disband the SE infantry though as early as possible in the Polish campaign as I want the extra prestige and also because I want the units I intend to keep to get more kills instead of using SE infantry units which stacks up kills/experience when I have no intention of keeping them later anyway. By not deploying the SE infantry it helps my other units build experience faster.

I agree on some of the soviet tanks, especially KV-1s. I always disband T-34s but I tend to keep the KV-1s since they have such good defensive stats compared to the German tanks in 1941. The downside of running with a lot of Soviet equipment is that there are no cheap upgrade paths. It is cheap to upgrade a Panzer IVD to Panzer IVE etc since it is the same “unit family” but if you want to upgrade a T-34 to a Panzer IV you pay the full unit acquisition price.

What I meant about main battle tanks is just how I tend to use them in the game. There is no distinction or special traits between "main battle tanks" and "infantry support tanks" in the game, they are all just tanks but with different stats. I use the Panzer IIINs primarily to kill soft targets such as infantry, artillery, trucks etc - basically doing similar tasks and working closely together with the infantry but I avoid pitting them against the best Soviet tanks.

The good points of the 3N are SA9 and slightly better CD combined with good GD. However, a KV1B has more fuel, better armour and the same speed so I'd usually deploy the KV instead. If you want to stick with the 3, you can change between L and N very cheaply to meet scenario needs
SE Grenadiers are about the best infantry around for killing hard targets in close terrain, and the extra ammo makes a ueful difference, especially on defence.

I haven't actually used grenadiers at all yet - I just got my first one as a "free" unit in Voronezh (with a +2 movement hero, so it should actually be able to keep up with my other forces). I mainly avoided them because of their 2 movement points. Pionieres seem to have enough other bonuses to make up for the lack of movement points, but grenadiers never seemed all that useful to me - enemy tanks rarely seem to hang out in close terrain, and even when they do, my pionieres are usually pretty good at taking them out anyway. I try to use stukas to take out enemy armor whenever possible, anyway, so I rarely need to have my infantry attack tanks. Two of my SE infantry have +1 movement heroes, so maybe I'll try switching one of them to a grenadier.

allophyl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:08 pm I haven't actually used grenadiers at all yet - I just got my first one as a "free" unit in Voronezh (with a +2 movement hero, so it should actually be able to keep up with my other forces). I mainly avoided them because of their 2 movement points. Pionieres seem to have enough other bonuses to make up for the lack of movement points, but grenadiers never seemed all that useful to me - enemy tanks rarely seem to hang out in close terrain, and even when they do, my pionieres are usually pretty good at taking them out anyway. I try to use stukas to take out enemy armor whenever possible, anyway, so I rarely need to have my infantry attack tanks. Two of my SE infantry have +1 movement heroes, so maybe I'll try switching one of them to a grenadier.

On grenadiers... many people upgrade units with movements heros to PzG... you may find this one interesting: viewtopic.php?t=79435

There are more of these discussions on the forum...

The 2move hero grenadier is good without transport. As fast as a truck in most terrain, no fuel to run out in snow and over a campaign or two save a ton of prestige because you aren't also replacing or overstrengthing the truck or half track. He's also always ready to fight and never caught in transit.

I think it could be interesting to upgrade a Pz III with defense hero to the N model