Slitherine

*rumbling in annoyance*

First I must clarify that I know it's intentional game design for weakened unit try to run away to preserve themselves when facing overwhelming pressure.

Although I may not love it, I admit it's a reasonable game mechanic and can benefits players too.

Bbbbbbbbbbbbut- sometimes it really goes annoying.
I remember I have read somewhere, that unit speed and experience have effect in a unit's chance of retreat. So a unit have higher speed and experience have better chance to retreat instead of being destroyed.
Not sure where I get this information from, forum post or manual? I forgot.
I still notice so many cases that my 5-star medium tank fail to chase down an 2 strength infantry unit.
I don't know why... can I just pray for a good RNG or is there any factor I don't know that can improve the chance of destroying enemies' unit?

May be terrain play a part too? It feels reasonable if my tank can't chase enemy through forest or marsh...but than I find they can't chase down enemies on open ground anyway, enemies still run in all direction like you just smoked a rabbit hide...

I agree, and wish they would adjust this mechanic. It is bad on all map types, but particularly annoying on desert maps. On a desert map against an armored vehicle with 4 hp's remaining, you will often need 3 different tanks to destroy it.

The first tank will take it down to 3hp and the enemy tank will retreat. Your next attack will take it down to 1hp and it will retreat. and the third tank is needed for the kill. If you dont have the 3rd tank, then the enemy unit will heal some of it;s hitpoint and you go through the same thing the next turn. Scout tanks are even worse - a single scout tank can blunt a whole wedge of attacking full health tanks. And escape to heal and repeat.


I would prefer it that your unit's damage is predicted to exceed the remaining hitpoints of the enemy unit, and especially if that unit has low efficiency remaining, then that unit should automatically be destroyed.

Recon cars and light tanks are excellent at chasing down runners. If you don’t currently include them, you should do so and excuses about not having space for them in your deck are malarkey as I’ve included them in damn near every mission that didn’t start me with them. Similarly tactical bombers with precision strike capability can trivially chase down and last hit enemy units. A two command point recon car is much cheaper than a six command point medium tank for chasing down enemy units. It also can’t be cornered easily and retreats from any combats it is losing.

Another option is to envelop isolated enemy units before attacking them. Leaving enemies with nowhere to run guarantees death and also ensures they take some bonus damage (iirc) from being unable to retreat to any valid tiles. Additionally some specs even give you bonus cash for trapping and clobbering zero efficiency units in this manner so it can also be pretty profitable.

Finally, this mechanic absolutely should not go anywhere. Destroying an enemy formation is no small effort. If you want it done, put in the effort to make it happen.

prestidigitation wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:06 pm Recon cars and light tanks are excellent at chasing down runners. If you don’t currently include them, you should do so and excuses about not having space for them in your deck are malarkey as I’ve included them in damn near every mission that didn’t start me with them.

The main reason people don't include recon vehicles in their decks are because they get absolutely chewed up by any enemy unit that isn't almost dead, making them a deadweight most of the time.

TheFilthyCasual wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:28 pm

prestidigitation wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:06 pm Recon cars and light tanks are excellent at chasing down runners. If you don’t currently include them, you should do so and excuses about not having space for them in your deck are malarkey as I’ve included them in damn near every mission that didn’t start me with them.

The main reason people don't include recon vehicles in their decks are because they get absolutely chewed up by any enemy unit that isn't almost dead, making them a deadweight most of the time.

Artillery and AA and AT will also get chewed up by any unit that isn’t dead attacking them. They’re also vital components of any deck in almost every scenario.

The ability of recon cars to provide safe access to mass attack bonuses by double stepping around a unit and then hitting again for a follow up at zero risk is pretty fantastic even beyond their cleanup role.

They’re also fantastic at spotting mines, bunkers and ambushing ATGs that would chew up other mobile units which can’t detect them before running into them.

And of course their aforementioned ability to clean up runners.

They can also bully low efficiency units even if they’re at full strength which is exceedingly helpful for keeping them low while doing damage.

And their ability to dodge damage even from super units allows them to extricate themselves from all manner of absurdly dangerous scenarios.

Or I suppose you could judge every unit by how well it performs in exactly one area, then act surprised when you lack essential capabilities.

I see people make the same mistake with SAS all the time, so it’s not surprising. “They aren’t as durable as other infantry” about a unit that can move invisibly, paradrop and does enormous damage from stealth to rear line or weak units for 2CP

A bit annoying at blitzkrieg when ussr has too many weaklings and the map is big plus the time is short. I dont have time and force to slay to the last scattered units (especially when they retreat and cross the swarm or river). So, leaving or just slowly following main force by some scout cars, engineers is nessessary sometimes.

In big engaging, scout units wont find any chances to chasing weakened units coz they will be removed by freshed one. Thats when my couple tac bombers shine with precise ability.

Although its mostly sooo annoying, this mechanic saved my elite units from unexpected counter attack uncounted times. Then its ok when i know how important to surround enemy before finishing them

prestidigitation wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:15 pm
Artillery and AA and AT will also get chewed up by any unit that isn’t dead attacking them. They’re also vital components of any deck in almost every scenario.

The ability of recon cars to provide safe access to mass attack bonuses by double stepping around a unit and then hitting again for a follow up at zero risk is pretty fantastic even beyond their cleanup role.

They’re also fantastic at spotting mines, bunkers and ambushing ATGs that would chew up other mobile units which can’t detect them before running into them.

And of course their aforementioned ability to clean up runners.

They can also bully low efficiency units even if they’re at full strength which is exceedingly helpful for keeping them low while doing damage.

And their ability to dodge damage even from super units allows them to extricate themselves from all manner of absurdly dangerous scenarios.

Or I suppose you could judge every unit by how well it performs in exactly one area, then act surprised when you lack essential capabilities.

I see people make the same mistake with SAS all the time, so it’s not surprising. “They aren’t as durable as other infantry” about a unit that can move invisibly, paradrop and does enormous damage from stealth to rear line or weak units for 2CP

Artillery pieces aren't frontline units, they fight from behind. Recon vehicles ARE frontline units (they can only attack units next to them) but can't really fight.

Light tanks are better because they can at least deal with infantry, although since only the Americans get a late-game light tank, over time they become like damage pinatas just like armored cars for everyone else.

For the CP of two recon I could get another infantry or artillery unit, which can actually fight.

Commandos, for what it's worth, are also fairly useless. There are so many non-artillery units milling about every map that it's incredibly easy to get commandos jumped by regular infantry and torn to shreds; that or they're doing nothing much of the time, maneuvering to get an attack in on an artillery piece. Paratroopers are the better option since they can beat regular infantry.

prestidigitation wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:06 pm Another option is to envelop isolated enemy units before attacking them. Leaving enemies with nowhere to run guarantees death and also ensures they take some bonus damage (iirc) from being unable to retreat to any valid tiles.

Yep, that's also my impression.

Cool discussion BTW, both parties being right and wrong...

TheFilthyCasual wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:01 pm
Artillery pieces aren't frontline units, they fight from behind. Recon vehicles ARE frontline units (they can only attack units next to them) but can't really fight.

Light tanks are better because they can at least deal with infantry, although since only the Americans get a late-game light tank, over time they become like damage pinatas just like armored cars for everyone else.

For the CP of two recon I could get another infantry or artillery unit, which can actually fight.

Commandos, for what it's worth, are also fairly useless. There are so many non-artillery units milling about every map that it's incredibly easy to get commandos jumped by regular infantry and torn to shreds; that or they're doing nothing much of the time, maneuvering to get an attack in on an artillery piece. Paratroopers are the better option since they can beat regular infantry.

Light tanks lack quick retreat, so they end up actually taking more damage from strong units. My T70 got hammered with a 7 damage smack, this would never happen to a Ba-10 which quick retreats from 4 damage max while still delivering the reaction fire of the AT behind it.

The advantage of the light tank is that it’s a mech chassis that can double step and gets 6-8 move. It envelops things like crazy.

The tldr is that the recon car tanks damage better than the light tank because of quick retreat.

It also helps to not throw light units at enemy tanks like some kind of commissar. Different tools should be used in different ways. They enable heavier units to succeed by doing things they cannot.

Commandos are also great at cleanup, and so long as there’s 1-2 tiles between them and any targets they can move entirely undetected. They can solo clear bunkers at minimal cost and in the correct terrain are an absolute menace. Burma allows them to shine and I used two on my all major victory max difficulty run. In Allies Defiant they struggle purely because every dang objective after you can get them is utterly slathered in mines. Italy should give them more room to flex what with how well they handle mountains.

prestidigitation wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:23 pm
Light tanks lack quick retreat, so they end up actually taking more damage from strong units. My T70 got hammered with a 7 damage smack, this would never happen to a Ba-10 which quick retreats from 4 damage max while still delivering the reaction fire of the AT behind it.

The advantage of the light tank is that it’s a mech chassis that can double step and gets 6-8 move. It envelops things like crazy.

The tldr is that the recon car tanks damage better than the light tank because of quick retreat.

It also helps to not throw light units at enemy tanks like some kind of commissar. Different tools should be used in different ways. They enable heavier units to succeed by doing things they cannot.

Commandos are also great at cleanup, and so long as there’s 1-2 tiles between them and any targets they can move entirely undetected. They can solo clear bunkers at minimal cost and in the correct terrain are an absolute menace. Burma allows them to shine and I used two on my all major victory max difficulty run. In Allies Defiant they struggle purely because every dang objective after you can get them is utterly slathered in mines. Italy should give them more room to flex what with how well they handle mountains.

Right, but any unit can clean up. Dedicated cleaner units like commandos don't take objectives. Paratroopers can take objectives.

I know the value of scout and tact bomber but both units have their limitation. Scout is too weak and tact bomber relies on air superiority and how strong enemy's AA umbrella is.

Well, I am not saying that I want the whole system to go. I also benefit from it. Not only it saves my core from stupid mistakes and bad positioning I made, but I also exploit the AI over-enthusiastically chasing my weakened unit which usually left them in a vulnerable position and left gaps behind allowing potential encirclement.

I just want some small twists to make them more reasonable. I think chassis type and terrain should play a more important role to determine the chance of escape.
A tank unit failed to chase down a 2 strength towed art is a little bit off, but it is more acceptable if they failed to destroy a 2 strength infantry in a forest tile.

Just a thought

It's a pretty annoying mechanic. Every time I use a tactic with light tanks it's a losing game.

TheFilthyCasual wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:36 am

prestidigitation wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:23 pm
Light tanks lack quick retreat, so they end up actually taking more damage from strong units. My T70 got hammered with a 7 damage smack, this would never happen to a Ba-10 which quick retreats from 4 damage max while still delivering the reaction fire of the AT behind it.

The advantage of the light tank is that it’s a mech chassis that can double step and gets 6-8 move. It envelops things like crazy.

The tldr is that the recon car tanks damage better than the light tank because of quick retreat.

It also helps to not throw light units at enemy tanks like some kind of commissar. Different tools should be used in different ways. They enable heavier units to succeed by doing things they cannot.

Commandos are also great at cleanup, and so long as there’s 1-2 tiles between them and any targets they can move entirely undetected. They can solo clear bunkers at minimal cost and in the correct terrain are an absolute menace. Burma allows them to shine and I used two on my all major victory max difficulty run. In Allies Defiant they struggle purely because every dang objective after you can get them is utterly slathered in mines. Italy should give them more room to flex what with how well they handle mountains.

Right, but any unit can clean up. Dedicated cleaner units like commandos don't take objectives. Paratroopers can take objectives.

Destroying the enemy force efficiently with a mix of fire units that can weaken and chip damage the enemy (chiefly artillery and strategic bombers), shock units that smash them after weakening (armor and infantry), and chase and exploitation units that can run them down and finish off the remnants guarantees faster and more efficient captures as I’ve demonstrated with various AARs. An enemy unit that cannot reform next turn because light cavalry units have chased it down and finished it off saves slower shock units doing the job, allowing them to continue with their actual mission.

I’m just astounded that people don’t see this as a core part of the gameplay and something to optimize against. Like, why on earth would you expend a 6cp medium to do a job that a 2CP recon car does better? Or risk a 200RP vet 3 tank to do a job that a 100RP vet 1 tank could do better and with less value at risk?

It’s like thinking AA is worthless because it costs 2CP and you should only bring fighters, then wondering why you’re always broke when you’re trading 1:1 with enemy fighters and your ground units are suffering.

There is plenty of land CP in every single mission to bring both a potent fighting force and supporting assets for that force. Not every land CP needs to be monomaniacally spent on the single task of clobbering the enemy,

prestidigitation wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:13 pm Destroying the enemy force efficiently with a mix of fire units that can weaken and chip damage the enemy (chiefly artillery and strategic bombers), shock units that smash them after weakening (armor and infantry), and chase and exploitation units that can run them down and finish off the remnants guarantees faster and more efficient captures as I’ve demonstrated with various AARs. An enemy unit that cannot reform next turn because light cavalry units have chased it down and finished it off saves slower shock units doing the job, allowing them to continue with their actual mission.

I’m just astounded that people don’t see this as a core part of the gameplay and something to optimize against. Like, why on earth would you expend a 6cp medium to do a job that a 2CP recon car does better? Or risk a 200RP vet 3 tank to do a job that a 100RP vet 1 tank could do better and with less value at risk?

It’s like thinking AA is worthless because it costs 2CP and you should only bring fighters, then wondering why you’re always broke when you’re trading 1:1 with enemy fighters and your ground units are suffering.

There is plenty of land CP in every single mission to bring both a potent fighting force and supporting assets for that force. Not every land CP needs to be monomaniacally spent on the single task of clobbering the enemy,

Because you already have the tank, whereas the recon car is taking put points that could be used on something more generally useful outside its very specific job.

AA isn't entirely worthless, but I would say that if your fighters are trading 1:1 you're either using bad fighters, not enough fighters, or aren't letting them build experience. The ideal number of fighters is 4, as that can usually down an enemy air unit in one turn if all 4 attack that target. An air kill ratio of 3 or higher is easily possible with that.

I agree that chasing down low hp units is one of the more annoying parts of the game.

On the other hand, we definitely need the unit trait "NoRetreat". Not from a commander, but a unit trait. Air kamikazes do not retreat, but land units do unfortunately.