Slitherine

Hi,

Question for the BJR team - I have an opportunity in a game to occupy some of the new Atlantic airbases (Azores, Greenland etc) with fighters. I have read the house rules and there doesnt seem to be anything preventing this. Do you think that this is an acceptable tactic?

This is a fairly urgent question as I am just about to embark troops to occupy the Azores (to keep my subs in the game and causing damage).

The Axis player is allowed to send units to Azores, Greenland, Iceland etc. if he can reach these islands. Since there are no ports in these islands it means land units can't leave if they land there. Air units can leave if another friendly hex is within movement range.

Capturing the Azores might work early in the game, but later the Allied player can shore bombard and use 2 CV's per turn to destroy the land unit. When it's empty an Allied unit can fly to the hex and capture it.

So it's definitely possible to take these islands to deny the Allies airbases against the subs.

Excellent - thanks for the help.

I will be using these - I think strategically placed fighters coupled with Subs will deny him the Atlantic

I'm weighing in here belatedly, but as it turns out, I am the "victim" in this scenario. My opponent has sailed a Luftwaffe fighter unit to Keflavik.

Initially, my reaction was that this is highly unrealistic, as would be any similar invasion of Greenland or the Azores. I have a problem with the way some hexes in CEAW are up for grabs by any air unit within range (examples abound: Rhodes, portion of interior Africa, the Orkney or Shetland Islands NW of the UK, as well as the already mentioned examples in this thread).

My approach to wargames is that they should reflect historical and geographical realities and limitations.

So, that is where I am coming from. BUT, my opponent points out that the fighter units could be considered as carrying their support troops with them as part of the invasion force.

I am prepared to accept that position. Conceivably, the Germans could have snuck a freighter or two through with fighters, fuel, ammunition, crew and support personnel. Conceivable---barely.

However, I fail to see how the Axis could logistically support these type of operations, once executed. How would replacement aircraft, pilots and fuel get to Keflavik? It's too much of an abstraction, to me, to say that these operations can be self-supporting. If one can argue that these units carry with them the abstract concept of a logistical tail, then I am prepared to argue that the GIUK Gap carries with it the abstraction of a Royal Navy standing patrol, and that it would be almost inconceivable that the Germans could supply an airbase in Iceland (or Greenland) with anything other than a couple of replacement pilots snuck in by u-boat.

An invasion of the Azores is, for me, too far-fetched. Likewise, I have a problem with Greenland.

Azores is too long of a distance, and since our mod does not provide for anything beyond an air presence there, then we have to assume that there is an intrinsic garrison. Similarily, Greenland is a bit too far, and the US would have had a garrison there for sure, considering the strategic significance of these two bases.l

Comments and criticisms of my position are most welcome

Happycat wrote:I'm weighing in here belatedly, but as it turns out, I am the "victim" in this scenario. My opponent has sailed a Luftwaffe fighter unit to Keflavik.

Initially, my reaction was that this is highly unrealistic, as would be any similar invasion of Greenland or the Azores. I have a problem with the way some hexes in CEAW are up for grabs by any air unit within range (examples abound: Rhodes, portion of interior Africa, the Orkney or Shetland Islands NW of the UK, as well as the already mentioned examples in this thread).

My approach to wargames is that they should reflect historical and geographical realities and limitations.

So, that is where I am coming from. BUT, my opponent points out that the fighter units could be considered as carrying their support troops with them as part of the invasion force.

I am prepared to accept that position. Conceivably, the Germans could have snuck a freighter or two through with fighters, fuel, ammunition, crew and support personnel. Conceivable---barely.

However, I fail to see how the Axis could logistically support these type of operations, once executed. How would replacement aircraft, pilots and fuel get to Keflavik? It's too much of an abstraction, to me, to say that these operations can be self-supporting. If one can argue that these units carry with them the abstract concept of a logistical tail, then I am prepared to argue that the GIUK Gap carries with it the abstraction of a Royal Navy standing patrol, and that it would be almost inconceivable that the Germans could supply an airbase in Iceland (or Greenland) with anything other than a couple of replacement pilots snuck in by u-boat.

An invasion of the Azores is, for me, too far-fetched. Likewise, I have a problem with Greenland.

Azores is too long of a distance, and since our mod does not provide for anything beyond an air presence there, then we have to assume that there is an intrinsic garrison. Similarily, Greenland is a bit too far, and the US would have had a garrison there for sure, considering the strategic significance of these two bases.l

Comments and criticisms of my position are most welcome

Check these threads out from the Axis History forum where "knowledge" folks argue this very issue. That is the historical potential for German to have invaded Iceland, Greenland and the Azores.

The first thread was the most in depth discussion on a possible German invasion of Iceland. My take was that one person was arguing that it was possible but everyone else was providing solid rationale why it was not. My take away was that it would be very risky for the Germans to try to take Iceland by the air. And once there they wouldn't be able to provide fuel and spare parts to keep their bombers flying.

My understanding of reading the below threads is that the Axis invasion of Iceland and Greenland would be difficult to achieve and near impossible to maintain if they did pull it off. A poster in the third thread makes the point that while Greenland is not part of the US it is part of the Western Hemisphere and a German invasion there would provoke a response from a "neutral" US under the Monroe Doctrine.

I encourage folks to read the below references and any others that might know about and bring there own perspective to this issue.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=240

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=149890

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19265

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=146198

Hi All,

I am the "accused" in this scenario - I agree with all points.

Should the invasion be allowed - debatable and happy to accept the situation, could germany have supplied the base historically - well this is very doubtfull. All these points I accept fully.
However this does need to be taken in the context and "history" of the game being played - The axis control the waves currently - the allies hide in fear. The allies if they had airbases in Iceland would not currently in this game be able to keep them supplied. The Axis even have surface raiders running which would allow supply.

If the Axis lost control of the waves in the Atlantic (especially the north where my fighter is based) then I would totally agree - however in the context of the game at its current stage then I would disagree on supply issues - the 2 supply points I have seem fair.

To me the debate is could I have done this in the first place - there is no other way to simulate an invasion of the islands and the setting up of an air base then by locating fighters there. It is impracticle sending an entire division to subdue greenland (a division would be almost the total inhabitants of the island)
Maybe a house rule limiting supply if the Atlantic is lost (similarly for the allies).

At the moment I am sure that very few convoys are getting through - so allies would in no ways be able to supply these bases - I on the other hand can supply these easily.

Should be an interesting debate.

Such a very amazing link!


pret personnel

The Axis even have surface raiders running which would allow supply.
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