Slitherine

I tried the crusader's battle array and how the French placed their crossbowmen at Poitiers but the former cost too many points on infantry and the the latter almost no effects.

Massed ones ? imho protected by something if possible as they won't evade unlike light ones, depending on what is available/which enemy is in front of them :
- on hill behind and above friendly infantry
- one hex behind friendly infantry
- in rough/difficult terrains
- ???

What are the crusader's battle array ?
How the French placed their crossbowmen at Poitiers ?

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:48 am What are the crusader's battle array ?
How the French placed their crossbowmen at Poitiers ?

The first one is how the French placed their crossbowmen(D) at Poitiers.Second one is crusader's battle array.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:48 am Massed ones ? imho protected by something if possible as they won't evade unlike light ones, depending on what is available/which enemy is in front of them :
- on hill behind and above friendly infantry
- one hex behind friendly infantry
- in rough/difficult terrains
- ???

Yep,but
1.It's rare when friendly force spawn on the hills.If the hills in the middle of the battlefield then there's no time to cap it.
2.They can't shoot over the friendly units' heads,if they can then could make the thing easier.
3.if not scattered.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:10 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:48 am Massed ones ? imho protected by something if possible as they won't evade unlike light ones, depending on what is available/which enemy is in front of them :
- on hill behind and above friendly infantry
- one hex behind friendly infantry
- in rough/difficult terrains
- ???

Yep,but
(...)
2.They can't shoot over the friendly units' heads,if they can then could make the thing easier.
(...)

Sorry I was unclear. I meant "next to a friendly infantry, one square behind" that way :

( empty ) infantry infantry
Crossbow

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:21 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:10 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:48 am Massed ones ? imho protected by something if possible as they won't evade unlike light ones, depending on what is available/which enemy is in front of them :
- on hill behind and above friendly infantry
- one hex behind friendly infantry
- in rough/difficult terrains
- ???

Yep,but
(...)
2.They can't shoot over the friendly units' heads,if they can then could make the thing easier.
(...)

Sorry I was unclear. I meant "next to a friendly infantry, one square behind" that way :

( empty ) infantry infantry
Crossbow

Is that historical?I saw many folks used that in the multiplayer mode since the FoG2 ancients.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:26 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:21 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:10 am

Yep,but
(...)
2.They can't shoot over the friendly units' heads,if they can then could make the thing easier.
(...)

Sorry I was unclear. I meant "next to a friendly infantry, one square behind" that way :

( empty ) infantry infantry
Crossbow

Is that historical?I saw many folks used that in the multiplayer mode since the FoG2 ancients.

ZoC2 (as we are talking about friendly ZoC2 protecting our (cross)bowmen) can be considered as a conceptual way to show an historical reality : enemy infantry wouldn't dare brushing past our friendly infantry knowing the risk of being opportunistically attacked.

(edit)
ZoC2 replaced the historical (but 'unimplementable') "opportunity charge" of the Tabletop game.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:31 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:26 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:21 am

Sorry I was unclear. I meant "next to a friendly infantry, one square behind" that way :

( empty ) infantry infantry
Crossbow

Is that historical?I saw many folks used that in the multiplayer mode since the FoG2 ancients.

ZoC2 (as we are talking about friendly ZoC2 protecting our (cross)bowmen) can be considered as a conceptual way to show an historical reality : enemy infantry wouldn't dare brushing past our friendly infantry knowing the risk of being opportunistically attacked.

Thanks,I'll add that one.Maybe I'll try the Aretine & Ghibelline Army's tactic at Campaldino and what the English did the same thing at the Verneuil(Put the archers/crossbowmen on the flanks).But it's hard to fight off the enemy cavalry on the flanks if don't have ditchs.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:03 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:48 am What are the crusader's battle array ?
How the French placed their crossbowmen at Poitiers ?

The first one is how the French placed their crossbowmen(D) at Poitiers.Second one is crusader's battle array.

Thanks very much for this interesting information !!!

If I understand it correctly from your pics above, about the order of battle at Poitiers, F are cavalry, so once F charged, the crossbowmen acted like light crossbowmen : shoot then evade when charged. You can replicate this tactic with light crossbowmen/bowmen.

And imho you can replicate the crusader's battle array using in-game ZoC2 as above, in a kind of checkerboard formation :

infantry ( empty ) infantry (empty)
(empty) crossbowmen (empty) crossbowmen

It is theoretically identical.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:44 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:03 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:48 am What are the crusader's battle array ?
How the French placed their crossbowmen at Poitiers ?

The first one is how the French placed their crossbowmen(D) at Poitiers.Second one is crusader's battle array.

Thanks very much for this interesting information !!!

If I understand it correctly from your pics above, about the order of battle at Poitiers, F are cavalry, so once F charged, the crossbowmen acted like light crossbowmen : shoot then evade when charged. You can replicate this tactic with light crossbowmen/bowmen.

I think their role is supporting the French cavalry(F).But in game the crossbowmen(and archers) can't shoot over the friendly units' heads is a really annoyed thing,different from the sengoku jidai.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:51 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:44 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:03 am
The first one is how the French placed their crossbowmen(D) at Poitiers.Second one is crusader's battle array.

Thanks very much for this interesting information !!!

If I understand it correctly from your pics above, about the order of battle at Poitiers, F are cavalry, so once F charged, the crossbowmen acted like light crossbowmen : shoot then evade when charged. You can replicate this tactic with light crossbowmen/bowmen.

I think their role is supporting the French cavalry(F).But in game the crossbowmen(and archers) can't shoot over the friendly units' heads is a really annoyed thing,different from the sengoku jidai.

Do you mean that the crossbowmen were spread out among the friendly horses, as e.g. Gallic archers or detached musketeers also did in other periods ? In game, this tactic is handled by the juxtaposition of a cavalry unit and a unit of Lights.
(edit)
The use of lights in game is quite logical: when the enemy cavalry charge the friendly cavalry, the crossbowmen among them would flee behind the horses (and then come back to cut some throats among the fallen cavalrymen).

Noob question (1) : why is there no light crossbowmen in say the French 1050-1154 while there are some in the French 888-1049 ? They weren"t used as skirmishers anymore at that time ? Likewise with the Bretons.

____
(1) there is always an interesting answer.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:59 am

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:51 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:44 am

Thanks very much for this interesting information !!!

If I understand it correctly from your pics above, about the order of battle at Poitiers, F are cavalry, so once F charged, the crossbowmen acted like light crossbowmen : shoot then evade when charged. You can replicate this tactic with light crossbowmen/bowmen.

I think their role is supporting the French cavalry(F).But in game the crossbowmen(and archers) can't shoot over the friendly units' heads is a really annoyed thing,different from the sengoku jidai.

Do you mean that the crossbowmen were spread out among the friendly horses, as e.g. Gallic archers or detached musketeers also did in other periods ? In game, this tactic is handled by the juxtaposition of a cavalry unit and a unit of Lights.
(edit)
The use of lights in game is quite logical: when the enemy cavalry charge the friendly cavalry, the crossbowmen among them would flee behind the horses (and then come back to cut some throats among the fallen cavalrymen).

I think they're behind the friendly horses.To shoot volleys before the friendly horses charge.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:38 am Noob question (1) : why is there no light crossbowmen in say the French 1050-1154 while there are some in the French 888-1049 ? They weren"t used as skirmishers anymore at that time ? Likewise with the Bretons.

____
(1) there is always an interesting answer.

Wired to me too,maybe should ask Mr.R.B.Scott.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:01 am

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:38 am Noob question (1) : why is there no light crossbowmen in say the French 1050-1154 while there are some in the French 888-1049 ? They weren"t used as skirmishers anymore at that time ? Likewise with the Bretons.

____
(1) there is always an interesting answer.

Wired to me too,maybe should ask Mr.R.B.Scott.

It isn't weird to me as there is ALWAYS a good reason in FoG2.