Slitherine

Hi i have noticed that the supply system on the game is almost useless ( unless you encircle units) so it's not really a good system imo, i think it should be replaced, i was thinking about adding supply lines or maybe trucks and other vehicles (like trucks, horsewagons, and other units in the game so that you wouldn't not need create new models, maybe just making a little changes to the model or add a couple of visual elements to put clear that it's a supply vehicle). because in real life supply was carried and done by those vehicles, also you can add a function to supply depots that when a unit enters it action range for example a radious of 2 hexes or 1 it resuplies. imo this would add more depth to the game because now you need to have these vehicles and defend them from both ground and aircraft enemy attacks, and visceversa you can attack the enemy supplies directly to cut off their supply lines. what do you guys think? i think this trend has to be disscused because its really complex, feel free to give your opinions and ideas

this will be in a way similar to panzer corps 1 system, so you can run out of ammo or fuel if you're not careful with your supplies, because with the current system you never run out of supplies unless you get encircled or loss all your supply hexes.

I’ve also thought about supplies, but it’s clear that the game is already made on that basis. Now if the system could be redesigned I would prefer the Order of Battle supply system.

Yeah i particulary loved the OoB supply system , obviously this will be for the future i doubt they want to change it now. i feel like this game has a really incredible potential but i kinda feel it less than OoB, like if this game is incomplete or lacks of something that makes me put it ahead of OoB, the AO is a whole step forward btw

this could be too big of a change, and knock out the balance of alot of the maps.
what would happen if ai suddenly turns cheese and ignores your troops and heads of and destroys your supply trucks?
does the enemy have same system and we just end going after their trucks?

be fairly lifelike but not great game wise, the actual use of supply hexs is weird to begin with , how dothey get their supplies?

I think that would be way too much hassle for very little gain.

How close do the supply-vehicles need to be to a unit to supply it?
Because if they actually need to be right next to a unit to supply it, you would need a ton of supply-vehicles to re-supply all units. That, in turn, would clogg the map with units that might be in the way of combat units, or, the other way round, would mean that supply-vehicles can't reach certain units because all spots near them are already taken by combat-units (e.g. a defensive position supported by artillery and / or AA an AT).
Unless you make it so that a unit gets resupplied as soon as such a unit would only need to pass by and not stop next to a unit at the end of the turn to re-supply units. But even that wouldn't solve the problem of not being able to reach all units. You'd basically would need to give these units a very broad range in which units get supplied, e.g. something like 5+ hexes or so. But in that case you'd have to be careful that units do not leech off supply from the transports while the transports head for the frontline. You wouldn't want your rear-units to take the supply, leaving little for those at the front. That would probably mean that you need to make it a function the player has to trigger by himself. And even then do you run into issues, because there could be cases where the player wanted the supply to reach specific units instead of all units in range. So add another layer of controls on top. It would get more and more complex with every detail like that.

Do these supply-vehicles need to move back and forth from a supply-base, or do they simply have a ton of supplies with them?
If it's the fomer, you need an endless stream of them, which means the map gets clogged again, if it's the latter, you might as well not have them at all.

And how would these supply-vehicles move?
If they have the regular movement their comparable vehicles have right now, you would be back to needing a ton of supply-vehicles, because their range would be very limited and the distance to your supply-base would increase by a lot over the course of a mission.

But even more importantly: how do you make sure that the AI actually gets to run it properly?
That would require a ton of work, and you still might end up with situations in which this can be easily exploited by the player. The last thing one wants to see in a game is a system that the AI is incapable of using properly. Especially since even with the AI not getting it done, it would still eat heavily into system-resources when it tries to adhere to that system as well as it can.

And what to do with players who really don't like that sort of micro-manangement?
In the past you could simply toggle supplies on and off. You can't really do that with this system. I don't think it would be all that easy to move back and forth between the current system and the proposed one. All missions would have to be designed in two different ways, the AI would need to be able to deal with both systems, etc.


Such a concept is probably something that you would need to implement right at the start of the development of the game. Its not something you can easily add afterwards, because it would require a ton of changes under the hood. That very likely means it is either something you might be able to add in a Panzer Corps 3, or, if the developers spend most of their resources and a lot of time just on adding this one detail, meaning you would get little beyond that for the forseeable future.

George_Parr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:27 am I think that would be way too much hassle for very little gain.

And what to do with players who really don't like that sort of micro-manangement?
That very likely means it is either something you might be able to add in a Panzer Corps 3, or, if the developers spend most of their resources and a lot of time just on adding this one detail, meaning you would get little beyond that for the forseeable future.

Agreed!... and Agreed! and Agreed!.
Just fall-back to... or use the "K.I.S.S.-Principle"... "Keep It Simple Stupid!".

I think we are way too committed to the current supply system to make any big changes, unfortunately. If I could make any change I would just remove the border supply. Campaign maps that are impacted by this change can have supply hexed added to some areas.

Mojko wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:36 pm I think we are way too committed to the current supply system to make any big changes, unfortunately. If I could make any change I would just remove the border supply. Campaign maps that are impacted by this change can have supply hexed added to some areas.

I never could get into OoB. The supply system, for starters, was one of the things that I did not like. In general, I understand the effort and there has always been - even in the days of Panzer General 2 - wishes to add more "realism" or complexity to the base game. I feel those who desire all of those aspects got it in OoB, but it does greatly complicate things and goes too far against the "keep it simple" philosophy that was/is one of the key attributes of the entire series (PG1 to PC2). You can find some who find even PC2 difficult so you risk alienating too many players I expect. I have no idea what the sells figures are for this game, but that's what I suspect they trying to do in order to keep the appeal as broad as possible while at the same time not turning off the hard core enthusiasts. A difficult balancing act as it were.

That being said, I too have been frustrated at times with the "border always supplies" reality of the game. But at the same time, eliminating it would likewise create an equally unrealistic "invisible wall" that also would be stupid. In real it would depend on what's beyond, and that's where a choice one way or the other probably has to be made. My last word on this would be what others have already said: it could have been directionally based, e.g. EF west border is German supply, East border is Soviet supply, but in the end I'm okay with the way it is now. They kept it simpler. Not a bad guiding rule to fall back on.

George_Parr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:27 am And what to do with players who really don't like that sort of micro-manangement?
In the past you could simply toggle supplies on and off. You can't really do that with this system. I don't think it would be all that easy to move back and forth between the current system and the proposed one. All missions would have to be designed in two different ways, the AI would need to be able to deal with both systems, etc.

That's probably the biggest issue for me that prevents this idea. This would involve so much clicking... and letting the AI control supply vehicles, oh dear. Now that said, mobile supply units acting as supply hexes could in some scenarios add interesting angles of approach where destroying them could lead to cutting off small groups of units. But only in rare and very specific cases where it makes logical sense.

Ezequiel1996 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:41 pm with the current system you never run out of supplies unless you get encircled or loss all your supply hexes.

This is not true. Armor with Steamroller can often run out of ammunition on their own turn, which leaves them open to consequence-free attacks on the subsequent enemy turn. Furthermore, it's possible to deplete an enemy unit's ammunition by forcing it to spend its ammunition on ineffective counterattacks, then follow up with attacks from more vulnerable units once it's out of ammunition (this is especially valuable when encircling very tough units - I had to do this many times in DLC'40 because of the fortresses and heroes in those scenarios). Finally, there are general traits that interact with the supply system meaningfully; if you choose inefficient supply, your scout cars can spend fuel faster than it replenishes, for instance. Chaotic Fire makes armor less capable of exploiting steamroller.

It's not an especially feature-rich supply system, but my feeling is that it strikes an appropriate balance for the game. If you're looking for a game with a heavier emphasis on logistics, check out Unity of Command II. I like each game for different reasons, but I don't think I would enjoy adding manual supply management to PzC2.

Mojko wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:36 pm If I could make any change I would just remove the border supply. Campaign maps that are impacted by this change can have supply hexed added to some areas.

Border supply probably is something that could be set with a toggle in the settings. That wouldn't be in my top five of feature requests, but it could be an interesting and low-effort new game setting for a future patch. Maybe it could even be set for each faction on a per-map basis, so that campaign creators could decide who gets border supply in which scenario. It sounds like something that a scenario designer could use and it might make the game more interesting and reflect the difficulty of offense a bit more.

Border as supply is up to the scenario designer.
If the map edge is made impassable it will not provide supply.

WookieeDavidson did this by accident with his first DDay version.
Both sides were immediately encircled.

dalfrede wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:49 pm Border as supply is up to the scenario designer.
If the map edge is made impassable it will not provide supply.

WookieeDavidson did this by accident with his first DDay version.
Both sides were immediately encircled.

I experimented with this idea, and it's worse of a problem than it appears.

Because the obvious answer to blocking all map edge is easy, put supply hexes down.

But that is a whole new can of worms. Now you have arbitrary locations on the map that are effectively immune to encirclements, and there is no way to disable a supply hex except by direct occupation. You might then say 'don't put supply hexes in arbitrary locations, put them in well established cities'... which is it's own problem, because odds are that major urban location is an objective. Imagine if Lille in 1940 DLC had a supply hex. The entire design of the historical conflict and resulting scenario falls apart because you can no longer create a grand encirclement around Lille.

To say nothing of the problems that arise from the ability to instantly deploy units from supply hexes (imagine if we let the AI purchase units from supply hexes, I have certainly not forgotten that complaint from Panzer Corps original).

There's a reason so very few supply hexes exist in the DLC content. Their ability to completely nullify encirclements disables the supply system entirely.

Change supply system to one like in Order of Battle: World War II?

An idea .... wouldn't a system where only the road hexagons supply at the ends of the map be possible? .... it would be quite similar to reality and I want to think that it would be feasible to implement it now or in the future ... simply the map and stage designers should keep this in mind (and put several roads from the rear to the end of the map) and the human player should leave some unit guarding the rear ...

ESPADATXI wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 pm An idea .... wouldn't a system where only the road hexagons supply at the ends of the map be possible? .... it would be quite similar to reality and I want to think that it would be feasible to implement it now or in the future ...

A scenario designer can do that now.
Make map edges impassible except for road/rail hexes.