Slitherine

I know lots of folks are busy with the Tournament, but I have a scenario that needs commenting upon.
It's Salerno D-Day -- probably the first scenario in a 3- or 4-scenario Operation Avalanche Campaign. Scenario is from the Allied invader side - I couldn't get the AI to cooperate in making it do an invasion...
I need to know about entertainment value, balance, challenge, and gameplay errors.
If you want to help out, it'll take several hours for the playthrough - lots of units and engagements.

Let me know by PM if you want to help and I'll send you a link. I don't want this proliferating in a first-draft state now but I need some feedback.

thanks in advance!

conboy

If it's only one scen... yeah, that should work. Gimme.

A few comments after playing the first 4 turns.

You use Marines to represent Rangers, did you consider Marine Raiders instead? No supply worries.

The KM faction is used for Luftwaffe. To limit resources and keep the majority of RPs for Wehmacht??

LW appears much stronger than the Allies.
Usually air superiority would be ensured beforegiving the go-ahead to large invasions like these.

Some messages lack graphics.

There does not seem to an ption to deploy reformed RAF faction core air units?
It is a carrier unit so maybe one of the other faction carrier units should be converted?

The exit locations on the south edge could use a flag and location name. What kind of exit?

There are large map areals W, n and E of the main invasion area that lack any objectives. Do you plan to add those later? Otherwise it is just empty space that may add to AI thinking and loading times.

There are .50 Cal halftracks. I think this will change hex ownership, which is a bit odd. Why not use the ready-made .50 Cal Jeep?

A Gmerna land unit or two is named D_urnemann. Some font issue here.

The UK and US redeployment hexes (naturally) work for both US/UK units. Maybe just rename them Allied redeployment?

Erik, thanks!

You use Marines to represent Rangers, did you consider Marine Raiders instead? No supply worries.

Rangers Battalions are more powerful than raider units. So I picked the Marines for Rangers.

The KM faction is used for Luftwaffe. To limit resources and keep the majority of RPs for Wehmacht??

Yes, exactly. I also have the blue-star for US Air Power and the RAF concentric circles for RAF.

LW appears much stronger than the Allies.
Usually air superiority would be ensured beforegiving the go-ahead to large invasions like these.

The allies did not have air superiority. It got even worse during the major counterattacks on 13 and 14 September.

Some messages lack graphics.

dangit dangit! dangit!!!!

There does not seem to an ption to deploy reformed RAF faction core air units?
It is a carrier unit so maybe one of the other faction carrier units should be converted?

I'll check it but I think they can be redeployed aboard the carriers. That was my intention, anyway. I thought I had an RAF Tac Bomber shot down and redeployed onto a Brit carrier...

The exit locations on the south edge could use a flag and location name. What kind of exit?

I'll check it out. Maybe an artifact from a previous version.

There are large map areals W, n and E of the main invasion area that lack any objectives. Do you plan to add those later? Otherwise it is just empty space that may add to AI thinking and loading times.

Yes, this is the first scenario in a campaign. I said I wouldn't try to use the same map for multiple scenarios, but here I am at it again.

There are .50 Cal halftracks. I think this will change hex ownership, which is a bit odd. Why not use the ready-made .50 Cal Jeep?

Why is it odd? The .50 cal jeep doesn't change hex ownership, which is why I use the halftracks. Maybe there's no real .50 cal halftrack on the TOE (table of organization and equipment) that's deployed as a separate unit. I should either take them off or relabel them MPs or Ordnance. But they weren't used like that IRL. I guess I knew I was taking a risk getting called down for using them. Maybe I'll get rid of them. But you're right to call them out because there wasn't really a mobile .50 cal unit that was deployed independently. I don't think anyway.

A Gmerna land unit or two is named D_urnemann. Some font issue here.

Doernemann (with an umlaut). I copied and pasted an umlaut into the name field in the editor. Guess I have to change it...

The UK and US redeployment hexes (naturally) work for both US/UK units. Maybe just rename them Allied redeployment?

Yes, that would be okay.

Thanks, man.

conboy

Interesting about the lack of Allied air superiority.
I think I need to edit my own Avalanche scenario a wee bit

It caught them off guard. Here is the source that talks about it. I'm sure you have it, but everyone interprets what they read a bit differently. I've highlighted some passages. See page 102.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/53bhitpge ... s.zip/file

This is not to say that the Germans were superior in the air at Salerno, only that the skies were contested and the Luftwaffe was able to influence events to an unanticipated degree -- especially for a few days after the landings.

conboy

conboy,

this is what I have so far:

- supply's all scattered. It's okay to have some huge supply-hubs for the AI somewhere unreachable to the player if so wanted, but usually all towns/villages provide at least some supply, even if it's only "1" or "2". And it makes the AI want to defend and go for those hexes...
- the supply of some town hexes is off by one hex, i.e. in the north-western part
- all BB are pre-deployed with the "primary guns" setting, making them unable to revert to the usual setting and firing the main guns with no cooldown. Seems intended, but wanted to make sure.
- Turn 2/3 event "fighters arrive" - no pic
- I have two supply ships in my reserve? Didn't notice before and now I can't deploy them, even if totally unneeded.
- You made all my units core, that means if I lose some, I get free CP slots and can purchase anything I want. For example a Cromwell tank. (Or I can just disband some)
- You "hex-ownership-change-mechanic" works, but you should reduce the distance from 1 to zero, otherwise the neighboring enemy units are put into undersupply, too.
- You could crop large parts of map, there's not much progress, so reinf. spawns at the edges should be fine even on a much smaller map

- the scen is brutal, good thing I chose to play on middle difficulty. The losses would've been much higher when my freshly debarked, low eff. units get hammered by powerful arty, endless air units and many tanks. Good idea with the low HP German tanks, though.
- Although a large map, the AI thinking time's not bad at all
- Theres a river crossing a few hexes east of "Streppina" that has no bridge (or it's an "invalid" crossing on a river hex)
- There's some flag in the middle of the road near the NW landing site
- "US cas available" event has no pic
- there's a 10 turn scen limit, but effectively I had only 8 turns, including the naval landings, to meet all objectives. Very tough time limit.
- I've miscalculated a bit in the southern part, and probably the scen is doable on a second play-through, but only because now that I know what (and especially when) is coming...
- I guess I would've needed at least those (full) 10 turns to win, but I'd suggest to add at least 4-5 turns for casual players.
- I'd suggest to increase the Brit income from 25RP/turn to 35RP or so.
- As you can see on the screenshot, the northern part was already taken as I was "hit" by a full-HP German Pz.IVF. No chance for my not-so-fresh-anymore infantry in the open...

As I do not dare edit posts with more than one attachment;
Addendum:

- the blue team's income can be reduced to 10RP/turn easily
- a recon plane for the northern part wouldn't have been bad

And thanks!
(Although I prefer to win... )

PS: Totally off-topic, but I hope my next post gets rid of this silly plane-avatar...

Gabe,
As usual, your comments are most helpful!
thank you -- now I know it is too difficult and will dial it back a notch and add a couple turns.
I had another comment from a reviewer to that effect and your review confirms it.

Also, your other comments will noticeably improve gameplay -- so thanks again!

conboy

There's a golden 'phase 2' objective (2) on the south map edge.

Where are the British tanks. I'm quite sure I have a few units in my Avalanche scenario.

There's a non-named German flag on clear ground on the road south of Brattipaglia.

The non-core US fighters can exit the map, but not return.

I missed the core supply ships as well.

The air war is quite interesting as the fighting for air superiority cunties through the landings.

10 turn is on the short side. I would add 5 more turns to give the player a little leeway. The scenario is ery difficult to win the first time.

The Brits need a higher RP income. They run out about turn-7.

Overall an interesting scenario in the good old conboy tradition, but currently too difficult. Especially the first time you play it.
Mine ended in a defeat on turn 9 which was a bit odd.

Thank you Erik!

Mr Busy Man not too busy to help a buddy out. Your comments are great.

Thanks again,

conboy

Erik,
You have a source for what tank units landed on D-Day salerno with the Brits? The 7th Armoured landed on the 15th, several days after DeeDay.
Did the Brit 46th and/or 56th Infantry divisions have armor attached to their infantry divisions (as did US infantry divisions) on D-day?
If so, can you link me up to info?

The air war is quite interesting as the fighting for air superiority cunties through the landings.

This scenario is for D-Day only - so about 12 turns on the first day, the air battle continued throughout the battle though. Maybe tapered off a little 4 days in, but not sure - can't really tell from the sources.

I found this:
"Only the 40th RTR participated in the initial landings at Salerno during Operation Avalanche, part of the Allied invasion of Italy, which began the Italian Campaign. It was assigned to the British 46th Infantry Division."
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/23rd_Armour ... d_Kingdom)
there are some nice pictures in that link.

Also,
The Royal Scots Guards landed and fought with the 56th -- so elements of at least two British Armoured Regiments landed with the infantry divisions.
http://diningtablenapoleon.com/1943-the ... man-tanks/
very nice pictures here!

Info about Brit OoB is harder to come up with than US OoB...

thanks,
It's going to be busy on the beach in Salerno D-Day second version...

conboy

British armor.

My main sources are 2 games, Gary Grigsby's War In The West and John Tiller's Salerno.
WiW is typical Grigsby with details down to particular equipment.

Assigned to AFHQ (Eisenhower):
4th Br Arm Bde Grp

XIII Br Corps (Dempsey):
1st CA Arm Bde

Should provide a few tank bns. I don't know if these participated in the initial assault, though.


From Tiller.
22nd Arm Bde:
1st RTR
5th RTR

X Corps Troops:
40th RTR

Tiller's version tracks with what I turned up the other day.

yep - several battalions.

Thanks!

conboy

Salerno D-Day, Phasis I:

I almost achieved a Major Victory (level 3 difficulty, as usual).

It's indeed more difficult for the British, basically for four main reasons: they have to deal with several strong counter-attacks towards the end (of this part), they lack any tank, they are short on RPs and from start they have to support more artillery fire than the American in the South...

So, to make it short:

1. Add some British tank battalions (as already mentionned within this topic)
1bis. Use this opportunity to add as well some British land commanders (we've 3 US, but not a single British one?)
1bis+. While at it, add few aces for the Allies (British and US) to help a little on the air side as well...

2. The first German tank units aren't all directly at full strenght... therefore, it may be perfectly possible, for the same reason, to put some of the big German artillery pieces in the north no longer at full strenght from start (perhaps some of them even at 6, some at 8, but of course still some at 10)... this will be a slight help for the player on its British side.

3. Either reduce the amount of units in the counterattacks ("HG Advance Recce", "Stempel II" and "Dornemann II" groups) or put some units there not at full strenght as well...
Don't forget that the player MUST be able to defeat them before moving on to the future Phasis II objectives... while keeping a relatively solid fighting force for the incoming challenges!

4. About RPs, I agree with what has been previously written: the British will run out of RPs and not long before having to face the massive German counter-attacks including many armored units...
So, indeed, please increase the British income. And it's indeed relatively safe right now to reduce slightly the US blue team.
But I would suggest giving some income as well for the British air side (perhaps 10RPs/turn or something)... Even if it's enough to win the air battle, the scenario is about to continue with the Phasis II part, so...
*******
Yes, few turns can be added... but I suggest "only" 2 or 3, as the previous points are already about to help the player and as we wish to keep it a little challenging.
****************

GabeKnight wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:18 am [...] supply's all scattered. It's okay to have some huge supply-hubs for the AI somewhere unreachable to the player if so wanted, but usually all towns/villages provide at least some supply, even if it's only "1" or "2". And it makes the AI want to defend and go for those hexes... [...]

I agree (even if I would prefer at least 5 per small towns/villages).
************
-> A recon plane or two in the north? Yes, it would be of much use!

-> About .50 Cal halftracks or .50 Cal Jeeps... well, they could indeed be called MPs or Ordnance (it would be nice for immersion), but then do the British have the equivalent?
Perhaps one unit each on the US side? And the Brits can have some US jeeps with them, it shouldn't be a problem to add them.
***********
Some thoughts about AI teams:

-> AI Team II is put on "Air Seek & Destroy" but consists of land units...
-> AI Team 7: one unit isn't a plane in there...
-> 2 German FW near the Dornemann group have been put on AI Team 1 instead of 3 or 7...
***********
Counter issue:

Despite their powerful counter-attacks, the German did only retake 1 primary objective... but the counter did show "6/9"! ( )
=> On the "Main Force Objectives", you should check the first 4 triggers ("<8" for the very first, on "Deploy phasis" for the others)... considering that a "<9" will do the trick!
(Beware about not forgetting to adapt ALL these number if you add some turns. )

About the secondary objectives "at Turn 10 Start"... I'm not entirely sure right now, but why "<9" instead of "<10"?
**********
About events:

1. About our fighters coming, 'could be nice to target the hex where they'll appear. Only the very first time, but it would be more clear like this.

2. Perhaps add event(s) once the counter-attack(s) versus the British are in sight or are about to be in sight...
**********
And a very little detail to finish:

Briefing -> "their advance lements." => "their advance elements."



Et voilà !

Thank you, ColonelY.

Spot on, as always!

conboy

You're welcome!


About the current triggers, in the case where the AI takes back one primary objective (to the British, let's say), before this obj is recovered again by the player... Won't this distort our counter?

(I mean, be considered as the capture of TWO different objectives, since there would be TWO "VP Capture Events", namely the capture itself then the recapture. )


Why am I talking about this? Well, if we add more turns here, then we may have to fully face the German counterattack(s) before having had the opportunity to take all locations... but dealing with these solid counteattack is likely to imply a temporary loss of some pri location, which would mean... well, you've got it!

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:33 am ****************

GabeKnight wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:18 am [...] supply's all scattered. It's okay to have some huge supply-hubs for the AI somewhere unreachable to the player if so wanted, but usually all towns/villages provide at least some supply, even if it's only "1" or "2". And it makes the AI want to defend and go for those hexes... [...]

I agree (even if I would prefer at least 5 per small towns/villages).
************

My default supply settings when creating a scenario:
- Village = 5 Supply
- Town = 10 Supply
- City = 20 Supply

Do you use this supply values wether the location is a silver/gold objective or not?