Slitherine

Hi,
A quick question. If I choose a Spartan army do I need to have an allied general if I use units such as the Thessalians LH or the Thracians? My opponent last night claimed that I had to as it says "Unless the C-in-C is of the same origin, troops only permitted to a certain origin can only be fielded under the command of an allied general of that origin". I believed that this ruling only applied to those units where it is stated in the lists that they can only be used with their own general, such as the Phokian stone throwers.

Geoff.

IMO, Thessalians are a people of Greece and if you want to use together with Spartans you must field as an ally contingent. Otherwise you can choose cavalry listed as Non-Thessalians. Thracians in Greek armies were essentially mercenaries, so you can use with any Greek nationality.

I agree but suggest the Cretan Archers should be lumped in with the Thracians as mercenaries on this army list who do not need their own allied general. The term "certain origin" is a bit unclear as to who is considered a "Greek" and who should be considered a "non-Greek".

Terry

Geoff2 wrote:Hi,
A quick question. If I choose a Spartan army do I need to have an allied general if I use units such as the Thessalians LH or the Thracians? My opponent last night claimed that I had to as it says "Unless the C-in-C is of the same origin, troops only permitted to a certain origin can only be fielded under the command of an allied general of that origin". I believed that this ruling only applied to those units where it is stated in the lists that they can only be used with their own general, such as the Phokian stone throwers.

Geoff.

Hi Geoff,
in this period I'm playing a lot with Spartan Army.

You have 2 options:

- if you use ARMOURED Hoplites you can have only 1 BG with Cv and so ............. hoping to combat in Hilly or Mountains (I use 4/ 5 BG's of LF with a lot of HF)

- if you use PROTECTED Hoplites you can have more mounted BG's.

I've tried both: ARMOURED are good against Shooting armies but you have a lot of problems with your wings. In any case PROTECTED HF are superior.

Sergio

Go armoured and flex out with bits and pieces - a great army. Do the armoured in 6s. They are fine this size. I foudn the Helots really useful for diving LF away as well.

Si

Geoff2 wrote:Hi,
A quick question. If I choose a Spartan army do I need to have an allied general if I use units such as the Thessalians LH or the Thracians? My opponent last night claimed that I had to as it says "Unless the C-in-C is of the same origin, troops only permitted to a certain origin can only be fielded under the command of an allied general of that origin". I believed that this ruling only applied to those units where it is stated in the lists that they can only be used with their own general, such as the Phokian stone throwers.

Geoff.

If this logic is applied (only using where it specifically says "only") then non spartan armies could get spartan citizens because it doesnt say "only spartans" in thier entry.

Going broader however would make cretans only available to a cretan army, Iphikrateans only available to an iphikratean army and thracians only available to a thracian army.

IMO if you want 12 LH you have to have a thessalian CinC.

Where I struggle with this is in the allies list.

Ie can you have 12 LH in total if you have a thessalian ally but a non thessalian CinC?
ie you take the 6 non thessalian LH available to the CinC and then 6 thessalian LH in the thessalian ally (deducting from the "thessalian" option minima and maxima in the main list).

Does a Spartan ally have to have 12 bases of spartans only if the CinC is spartan as per the entry? If so can a spartan ally have no upgraded spartans (the minima in the ally list appears to only kick in depending on the CinC not the ally general).

expendablecinc wrote:Going broader however would make cretans only available to a cretan army, Iphikrateans only available to an iphikratean army and thracians only available to a thracian army.

I think Iphikrateans refers to a period rather than to a Greek people, since Iphicrates was an Athenian, but fought also for Persians and Thracians.

Geoff2 wrote:
Hi,
A quick question. If I choose a Spartan army do I need to have an allied general if I use units such as the Thessalians LH or the Thracians? My opponent last night claimed that I had to as it says "Unless the C-in-C is of the same origin, troops only permitted to a certain origin can only be fielded under the command of an allied general of that origin". I believed that this ruling only applied to those units where it is stated in the lists that they can only be used with their own general, such as the Phokian stone throwers.

Geoff.

If a Spartan C-in-C you have to take your Thessalians from the line that says Non-Thesslalians so you can only take 4-6 in a pre 450 Spartan army. So basically anywhere it states a regional type, you need your army to be that to state to use that item. Thracians always allowed as Thracian is not a classical greek state and has its own list elsewhere in the books.

So my interp is that the general list is athenian, theban, corinthian etc. And you can specifally shoose to be

Spartan
Thessalian
Aitolian
Phokian
Akarnarnain
Asiatic Greek
Italiot
Siciliot

all of which have their own quirks

And you can build a real hotch botch if you gor for a cin-c and 3 allies. Spartan - Corinthian - Phokian - Siciliot alliance anyone.

Si

PS not sure about Iphikratean as I thought that was a period of Athens as well - you would need to ask the list team on the other forum. Nik can probably tell us. Nik?

Iphikratean hoplites are available to anyone. No regional restriction is indicated.

This term describes an innovation by Iphikrates in Athens that is believed/argued to have been rapidly copied - for example, the Alexandrian Macedonian list on page 44 explicitly states that it is allowing for the theory that Macedonia's up to 36 bases of Greek hoplite mercenaries were mostly Iphikratean rather than traditional hoplites.


P.S. Maybe this belongs in the Army Design forum?

It does really but since it was here in my line of charge .....

That makes sense on the special hoplites Mike. Would explain why its expressedf that way.

Spartan a very good army indeed. I have used it aquite a bit. Thessalian too. Happy to post my 12 lists if of interest.

Si

shall wrote:Go armoured and flex out with bits and pieces - a great army. Do the armoured in 6s. They are fine this size. I foudn the Helots really useful for diving LF away as well.

Si

Hi completely agree: 5 BG's of armoured superior Hoplites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (6 bases for each BG) and a lot of LF.
Great army
Sergio