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Pursuit after enemy BG autobreaks
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:50 am
by Polkovnik
When an enemy BG autobreaks does the friendly BG that was in contact with it make a pursuit move ? I'm sure i've seen mentions on this forum that it does but I can't find where it says this in the rules.
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:52 am
by philqw78
yes it makes a pursuit as with any BG breaking, remember auto broken Bg are not removed until the JAP, unless the pursuers have taken all the bases beforehand
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:26 am
by Polkovnik
But where does it say this in the rules ? On pg 101, Initial Pursuit states "An unbroken BG whose close combat opponents have broken and routed this phase, always pursues unless..."
A BG that autobreaks has not "broken and routed" so it would seem that this does not apply.
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:31 am
by philqw78
How is an automatically broken battle group not broken??
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:37 am
by Polkovnik
It is broken but does not rout. So it has not "broken and routed".
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:41 am
by SirGarnet
Polkovnik wrote:It is broken but does not rout.
You find something contradicting page 100 saying that broken troops rout?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:42 am
by stenic
Polkovnik wrote:It is broken but does not rout. So it has not "broken and routed".
Err... surely breaking units rout at the point of breaking and then again in every JAP.
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:47 am
by hammy
2 base BGs of superior and elite troops that lose a base do not autobreak but are removed without routing at the end of the JAP. Could this be what is causing confusion?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:53 am
by Polkovnik
You find something contradicting page 100 saying that broken troops rout?
Yes, agreed, but it would make things a lot clearer if it mentioned this in the section on Autobreak, pg 116. There it says "are destroyed and removed from the table", with no mention of a rout move taking place.
And on Hammy's point, if a one base BG of superior / elite trops is removed, is there a rout and pursuit move ?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:58 am
by Polkovnik
Also, looking at the turn sequence, in each of the Impact, Shooting and Melee sections, it states "Make initial rout moves for troops broken this phase. Make initial pursuits."
In the JAP section it just states "Remove any battle groups that are autobroken or reduced to 1 base." There is no mention of rout and pursuit moves.
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:05 am
by hammy
Polkovnik wrote:You find something contradicting page 100 saying that broken troops rout?
Yes, agreed, but it would make things a lot clearer if it mentioned this in the section on Autobreak, pg 116. There it says "are destroyed and removed from the table", with no mention of a rout move taking place.
And on Hammy's point, if a one base BG of superior / elite trops is removed, is there a rout and pursuit move ?
Err, what the passage in question says is:
Battle groups automatically break when they have lost a certain proportion of their original bases, so accumulated loses can get you in the end:
Quality Autobreak on
Elite > 60% lost
Superior > 50% lost
Average > 40% lost
Poor > 30% lost
Battle groups below these break points cannot be rallied and are destroyed and removed from the table at the end of any joint action phase.
Battle groups with only one base left are also destroyed and removed from the table at the end of any joint action phase. Where a battle group has not already broken when this occurs, it will trigger a cohesion test for nearby friendly battle groups as if it had just broken.
There are several rules in this section. There is the rule that says that BGs break
immediately when they lose a proportion of their bases. Then there is a rule that says that below thes breakpoints BGs cannot be rallied and are removed at the
end of any JAP
Finally there is a rule that any BG that has been reduced to one base is removed at the
end of any JAP
Nowhere does is say that an autobroken BG does not rout.
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:19 am
by Polkovnik
There is the rule that says that BGs break immediately when they lose a proportion of their bases.
So does that mean that if a BG loses bases in the melee phase and puts it under the level for autobreak, it immediately breaks and routs in the melee phase ?
So even though this rule is mentioned in the JAP section, it can take effect in any phase ?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:59 am
by terrys
When a unit drops to it's autobreak level the following rules apply:
Battle groups automatically break immediately when they have lost a certain proportion of their original bases
(from the 'AUTOBREAK' section)
Battle group makes a rout move in the phase in which it breaks, and in each subsequent joint action phase
(from the 'BROKEN' section of the 'COHESION LEVEL AND EFFECTS' table)
In the case where a 2-base Superior or Elite BG loses a base it obeys the following rule:
Battle groups with only one base left are also destroyed and removed from the table at the end of any joint action phase.Where a battle group has not already broken when this occurs, it will trigger a cohesion test for nearby friendly battle groups as if it had just broken.
So, in this case the BG does not break or make a route move, and there is no pursuit.
There will however be a test for BGs within 3MUs at the very end of the JAP.
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:35 pm
by hammy
Polkovnik wrote:So does that mean that if a BG loses bases in the melee phase and puts it under the level for autobreak, it immediately breaks and routs in the melee phase ?
So even though this rule is mentioned in the JAP section, it can take effect in any phase ?
Actually it is mentioned in the "Battle group deterioration" section. I have no idea why you think it only happens in the JAP.
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:33 am
by deadtorius
I believe if you check the JAP sequence you will see you rout first, then pursue and at the very end after all routs and pursuits you remove autobreaks.
Most people seem to think autobreak means immediate removal at the time of the autobreak which we used to do too until somewhere in the forums the JAP sequence was pointed out.
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:30 am
by Polkovnik
Actually it is mentioned in the "Battle group deterioration" section. I have no idea why you think it only happens in the JAP.
My mistake, I thought it was in the JAP section.
But is it correct that a BG reduced below its autobreak level breaks and routs in the phase in which this happened ?
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:40 am
by philqw78
Yes.
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:55 am
by SirGarnet
Polkovnik wrote:But is it correct that a BG reduced below its autobreak level breaks and routs in the phase in which this happened ?
Autobreak routs make Elephants more fun to face.