Slitherine

What is the detailed situation regarding mounted lancers breaking off from elephants. My experience is that once contacted by elephants they were gone burgers but recently they keep breaking off. In a current game I charged the lancer with my elephant and he broke off into difficult going (steep hill).

They can break off in the same circumstances they would break off from non-shock mounted troops - i.e. if they lose badly.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:36 am They can break off in the same circumstances they would break off from non-shock mounted troops - i.e. if they lose badly.

If they lose badly shouldn't they drop a cohesion level fighting elephants?

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:28 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:36 am They can break off in the same circumstances they would break off from non-shock mounted troops - i.e. if they lose badly.

If they lose badly shouldn't they drop a cohesion level fighting elephants?

If they fail their cohesion test, which they are very likely to do.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:53 am

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:28 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:36 am They can break off in the same circumstances they would break off from non-shock mounted troops - i.e. if they lose badly.

If they lose badly shouldn't they drop a cohesion level fighting elephants?

If they fail their cohesion test, which they are very likely to do.

Nope took 5 rounds and a flank charge to assist the elephant in the third round before they gave up the ghost.

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:31 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:53 am

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:28 am

If they lose badly shouldn't they drop a cohesion level fighting elephants?

If they fail their cohesion test, which they are very likely to do.

Nope took 5 rounds and a flank charge to assist the elephant in the third round before they gave up the ghost.

So you were unlucky.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:41 am

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:31 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:53 am

If they fail their cohesion test, which they are very likely to do.

Nope took 5 rounds and a flank charge to assist the elephant in the third round before they gave up the ghost.

So you were unlucky.

What was unlucky were my 3 pike blocks double dropping in the middle at the same time this was happening. I think that the lancer is not just bad luck but is rather pushing the realms of credibility. My question is should lancers be able to stand up to continued attack by elephants like this example. Are lancers possibly too strong against elephants? After all they remained steady which means they were in good order after consecutive rounds of losing badly to elephants.

I don't recall ever seeing lancers, mine or opponents, break-off from elephants. Usually, they're just stomped on, unless rescued by friends.

Karvon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:01 pm I don't recall ever seeing lancers, mine or opponents, break-off from elephants. Usually, they're just stomped on, unless rescued by friends.

Yes that was my experience as well. I initially thought that nothing could recoil from elephants and normally would drop a cohesion level without recoiling. I'm not sure what you need to pass a CT as the rules don't actually say but the lancers would have a -3 if they recoiled and also should not get quality re-rolls from fighting elephants unless that has changed. So assuming you need a 6 to pass a CT that would mean the lancers have a pretty good chance of not dropping a cohesion level despite having lost badly to elephants. I'm not sure if they can but I don't think elephants can ever recoil. I've never seen it anyway.

I think I've had non-lancers fall-back from elephants on occasion.

Karvon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:59 pm I think I've had non-lancers fall-back from elephants on occasion.

Non lancers will normally flee from elephants and surely wouldn't charge elephants.

Sometimes they get caught due to pursuit, evasion or already being in melee.

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:49 am

Karvon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:59 pm I think I've had non-lancers fall-back from elephants on occasion.

Non lancers will normally flee from elephants and surely wouldn't charge elephants.

What about the guy from Rohan in LOTR?? haha

Assuming the Lancers and Light Spear cavalry are superior ( and 90% are..) the Lancers actually are down -200 POA at impact and the Light spears are only down -150... They are both -50 POA in melee. Since light spears presumably can throw their spears and or have javelins it makes sense they are slightly better at impact versus elephants. ( the POA charts in the manual work, remeber an elephant is NOT a mounted troop or foot...)

This is super easy to test in hotseat playing Indian vs Early Breton( as they have superior Light Spear and Lancer cav) . I tried it twice and both cavalry types bounced off or broke off EVERY SINGLE TIME in the combats..... Seems everything is working correctly.

TheGrayMouser wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:39 pm

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:49 am

Karvon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:59 pm I think I've had non-lancers fall-back from elephants on occasion.

Non lancers will normally flee from elephants and surely wouldn't charge elephants.

What about the guy from Rohan in LOTR?? haha

Assuming the Lancers and Light Spear cavalry are superior ( and 90% are..) the Lancers actually are down -200 POA at impact and the Light spears are only down -150... They are both -50 POA in melee. Since light spears presumably can throw their spears and or have javelins it makes sense they are slightly better at impact versus elephants. ( the POA charts in the manual work, remeber an elephant is NOT a mounted troop or foot...)

This is super easy to test in hotseat playing Indian vs Early Breton( as they have superior Light Spear and Lancer cav) . I tried it twice and both cavalry types bounced off or broke off EVERY SINGLE TIME in the combats..... Seems everything is working correctly.

LOL yes and those elephants were even bigger! I understand the game scoring and cohesion testing for mounted against elephant what I'm saying is the mounted should not do that well nor should they remain ordered when in melee against elephants. I've just had a game when one of my cav was in melee against an enemy lancer and was charged by an elephant as well. He held his ground for 4 or 5 rounds before succumbing. It just doesn't feel right. The steady state allows units to fight at full potential and no cavalry can do that when fighting elephants. I think any mounted units should turn tail and run when contacted by elephants. In saying that I have no knowledge of the historical outcomes of elephants vs cavalry encounters. Is there anyone out there that could enlighten us? LOTR's does not count

Except mounted fighting Elephants are NOT in a Steady state - Elephants Slightly Disorder adjacent friendly cavalry and Moderately Disorder adjacent enemy cavalry, with Moderate Disorder having similar combat effects as Disruption. The only reason you sometimes see cavalry hold on for a few round of combat is because so many cavalry units are Superior and passing their cohesion tests. The unlucky Average cavalry unit caught by Elephants will on average break far more quickly.

So a great danger of Elephants beyond their direct combat power is their ability to disorder several enemy units at once in a cavalry melee, but unlike camels be safe from a counter charge by Lancers.

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:09 am Except mounted fighting Elephants are NOT in a Steady state - Elephants Slightly Disorder adjacent friendly cavalry and Moderately Disorder adjacent enemy cavalry, with Moderate Disorder having similar combat effects as Disruption. The only reason you sometimes see cavalry hold on for a few round of combat is because so many cavalry units are Superior and passing their cohesion tests. The unlucky Average cavalry unit caught by Elephants will on average break far more quickly.

So a great danger of Elephants beyond their direct combat power is their ability to disorder several enemy units at once in a cavalry melee, but unlike camels be safe from a counter charge by Lancers.

According to the game manual there are no penalties in the Combat or Cohesion Test tables for Slight Disorder or Moderate Disorder only for Disorder so in fact they are fighting as if Steady when it comes to penalties. Do the tables in the manual mean to include these other lesser states of disorder states as the same as Disordered?

On troop quality I was under the impression troop quality was not in affect when being shot at by artillery or when fighting elephants. I cannot find any reference to it in the rules although I'm pretty sure it was so at some time in the games evolution. It would be nice if this could be clarified.

However my question was if horses or camels should be able to perform in combat with elephants as well as they do and also if anyone knows of any historical encounters that could shed some light on the subject.

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:43 pm According to the game manual there are no penalties in the Combat or Cohesion Test tables for Slight Disorder or Moderate Disorder only for Disorder so in fact they are fighting as if Steady when it comes to penalties. Do the tables in the manual mean to include these other lesser states of disorder states as the same as Disordered?

If there are no combat or cohesion penalties for Slight Disorder or Moderate Disorder, what is the point of the existence of those states?

76mm wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:09 pm

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:43 pm According to the game manual there are no penalties in the Combat or Cohesion Test tables for Slight Disorder or Moderate Disorder only for Disorder so in fact they are fighting as if Steady when it comes to penalties. Do the tables in the manual mean to include these other lesser states of disorder states as the same as Disordered?

If there are no combat or cohesion penalties for Slight Disorder or Moderate Disorder, what is the point of the existence of those states?

Possibly an incomplete update of the manual but I'm unsure.

I have a vague recollection that Moderate Disorder is the equivalent of Disrupted, and Severe Disorder (I think there is such a thing) is the equivalent of Fragmented, in each case including for combat and cohesion check purposes. But I don't recall if I read that in the manual, here on the forum, or simply imagined it...

There is a reduction in combat power ( which is visible in the combat logs) when you are in the various degrees of "disorder" from avderse terrain and or from elephant/camel stink... Severe Disorder also gives a -1 cohesion test when losing a combat, Units are not considered steady when above slightly disordered ( which generally only effects spears and pikes I think)