Slitherine

I recently played a game where a unit rallied from routing and there entered a fragmented state. The unit was facing one of my units and therefore created a zone of control. My unit was facing away from the freshly fragmented unit whos ZOC prevented my unit from moving away or charging away. Is this the way it is supposed to work? It seems strange that a fragmented unit can exert a zone of control yet is unable to charge. My understanding of the zone of control is that it represents units dangerously close to each other and semi-engaged. However, a fractured unit is unlikely to be exerting any control but licking their wounds and hoping no one sees them. Or am I just completely off on this?

Sounds to me normal fragmented unit can exert ZoC unlike routed ones.
Wasn't it however a priority to attack it before it becomes disrupted again ?

Warg1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:20 pm I recently played a game where a unit rallied from routing and there entered a fragmented state. The unit was facing one of my units and therefore created a zone of control. My unit was facing away from the freshly fragmented unit whos ZOC prevented my unit from moving away or charging away. Is this the way it is supposed to work? It seems strange that a fragmented unit can exert a zone of control yet is unable to charge. My understanding of the zone of control is that it represents units dangerously close to each other and semi-engaged. However, a fractured unit is unlikely to be exerting any control but licking their wounds and hoping no one sees them. Or am I just completely off on this?

It should be possible to move away one square from the ZoCing unit in order to make the ZoCing effect cease and then, if enough AP left, charge.

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:23 pm

Warg1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:20 pm I recently played a game where a unit rallied from routing and there entered a fragmented state. The unit was facing one of my units and therefore created a zone of control. My unit was facing away from the freshly fragmented unit whos ZOC prevented my unit from moving away or charging away. Is this the way it is supposed to work? It seems strange that a fragmented unit can exert a zone of control yet is unable to charge. My understanding of the zone of control is that it represents units dangerously close to each other and semi-engaged. However, a fractured unit is unlikely to be exerting any control but licking their wounds and hoping no one sees them. Or am I just completely off on this?

It should be possible to move away one square from the ZoCing unit in order to make the ZoCing effect cease and then, if enough AP left, charge.

Not if your opponent has moved a unit (even a light) in front of your unit facing away from it so it does not present a primary ZOC or moved a non light's ZOC one move away from where your unit can move.

Fragged units exert a ZoC because your troops on the ground have no way to look at them and say "aha, those men are Fragmented, they cannot charge!" As a concession to gameplay, we can see this at a glance from our godlike perch in the sky, but your men can't.

I think this was a game where he was playing me.. I couple of my units rallied in very beneficial spots just behind his men. I was actually going to ask Bunny at the time if fragmented units had ZoC. I turned my fragmented elephant to stop Warg getting off a rear charge on one of my units. I then also had a spear unit rally from routing and also exert ZoC.

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:00 pm Fragged units exert a ZoC because your troops on the ground have no way to look at them and say "aha, those men are Fragmented, they cannot charge!" As a concession to gameplay, we can see this at a glance from our godlike perch in the sky, but your men can't.

I'd argue that the ZOC occurs because the opposition are acting in a hostile manner in close proximity thereby causing the unit to take caution. A bunch of beaten up fragile fighters who aren't even able to charge anyone else would not be acting in that manner and would have a questionable ZOC..but maybe that's just me

As I just said to Warg on Steam, my argument wouldn't be against the ZoC as to rallying next to or immediately behind your opponent's forces. In a lot of wargaming rules, rallying from routing occurs a certain distance away from the enemy or there is less likelihood of rallying according to promixity to the enemy.

Warg1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:38 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:00 pm Fragged units exert a ZoC because your troops on the ground have no way to look at them and say "aha, those men are Fragmented, they cannot charge!" As a concession to gameplay, we can see this at a glance from our godlike perch in the sky, but your men can't.

I'd argue that the ZOC occurs because the opposition are acting in a hostile manner in close proximity thereby causing the unit to take caution. A bunch of beaten up fragile fighters who aren't even able to charge anyone else would not be acting in that manner and would have a questionable ZOC..but maybe that's just me

I think ZoC occurs because, for example, nobody would dare walk along a enemy unit that is not fleeing or turn his back on it and calmly walk away for fear of being rear/flank attacked and having a hard time. As the fragmented unit is not fleeing, it does not show its emotional state as SnuggleBunnies wrote. Fragmented units are still agressive enough to be able to move, rotate, shoot and be close to be disrupted and steady again.

"Controlling" someone (in the sense of ZoC and probably in some other RL occurrences) is not about being an actual threat but about appearing to be a threat in the minds of the enemy, in his eyes.

(edit)

I guess that moving oneself in a position of being charged in flank or rear would be IRL the best way to encourage a 'fragmented' enemy and make him steady again and charge...

SLancaster wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:14 am As I just said to Warg on Steam, my argument wouldn't be against the ZoC as to rallying next to or immediately behind your opponent's forces. In a lot of wargaming rules, rallying from routing occurs a certain distance away from the enemy or there is less likelihood of rallying according to promixity to the enemy.

Yes I think that's a good point..one turn the unit is fleeing for the hills..and then it's suddenly posing as a threat to prevent someone from moving away from them. I think ultimately this is about the unit who wishes to move away from another unit's perception of the threat of that unit. It seems a fairly binary leap from 'haha look at those cowards running away' to 'gosh they look like a bit of a threat so I shouldn't place my back to them'. Look at the end of the day and them's the rules and we all play by them so that's fine. But on the other hand it's a war game simulating a battle and it just felt strange in applying the rules in those circumstances.

Yes, Athos also makes a good point. A fragmented unit could be close to rallying up. The morale of the troops could be improving. In the game we are discussing, my veteran spearmen on the hill also rallied from routing. I actually considered moving them away to save them from being routed by a nearby enemy unit. But, I turned them to face another enemy unit. Next turn they rallied to disrupted and were able to get a rear charge on the enemy..!

Moral of story is to kill off any fragmented units if you have the chance!

Meanwhile there are other players who grumble, considering there are too many lonely units rallying at the edge of the map away from enemy units...

A rallying unit is a unit that has not been harassed by an enemy for some time, especially by Light Troops and their projectiles, so it does not happen all of the sudden.

SLancaster wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:14 am (...) there is less likelihood of rallying according to promixity to the enemy.

Why if the enemy is passive enough to let you recover ?

SLancaster wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:19 am Moral of story is to kill off any fragmented units if you have the chance!

Indeed !

As I said to Warg on chat:

"People also mention that sometimes you have to think of it as a battlefield.. in real time. Units are active and maybe some would rally and then attack the enemy. This set of rules is just trying to recreate real-time as well as creating a good game.

I think you could have probably stopped the veteran spearmen on the hill that got the rear charge if you had advanced towards them. I thought you would kill them off. The other two units were really lucky for me."

Yes, also a good point about always trying to harass and get rid of routing units with your lights or cavalry. Otherwise, you run the risk of something happening like in my game v Warg.

Do you know how the mechanics actually work when chasing routing units? Are they a lot less likely to rally?

SLancaster wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:24 am Yes, also a good point about always trying to harass and get rid of routing units with your lights or cavalry. Otherwise, you run the risk of something happening like in my game v Warg.

Using your units either to help in the main melees or to pursue routed enemy units is an interesting tactical dilemma too.

SLancaster wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:24 am Do you know how the mechanics actually work when chasing routing units? Are they a lot less likely to rally?

Manual, p. 87 :

Routing units cannot test to rally if they are being pursued, or if they suffered more than 10% losses from shooting in the previous enemy turn.

Right, that was the crux of the problem for Warg. Use his infantry to chase a fragmented unit or use it in the battle. If he had cavalry or lights nearby then maybe an easier decision.

To be fair, 10% losses is quite high. Many units could still rally.

SLancaster wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:05 pm To be fair, 10% losses is quite high. Many units could still rally.

Especially with moving (pursuing) Light troops on low ammunition ? I guess so.

But I think that, in the case where it is not the initial pursuit, if your unit (including a Light one) charges the routed enemy unit, it counts as 'being pursued' during the next turn of the enemy. So it can't test to rally this time. You have to keep on charging each next turn (or shoot or decide to let it go).
That's what I do, but don't take my word for it, it needs confirmation.

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:00 pm Fragged units exert a ZoC because your troops on the ground have no way to look at them and say "aha, those men are Fragmented, they cannot charge!" As a concession to gameplay, we can see this at a glance from our godlike perch in the sky, but your men can't.

That is correct.