Slitherine

This happened in a game on Monday:



My troops are the BG of MF spear facing up the picture the BG of MF spear facing left and the light foot facing up and left.
My opponents are the cavalry, the BG of MF in the centre facing left and the BG fighting my MF spear at the top of the picture.

The MF in the centre have routed and contracted by one file to pass behind my spear BG. They rolled a maximum VMD and I rolled one less so as a result they have just out distanced their pursuers.

When it comes to routing in the JAP it is my opinion that as they can't turn because of the proximity of the pursuers meaning there is no space to do so that their only option is to wheel to their own baseline (top of the picture). I think that as routers they can slide sidways up to a base width in the process of the wheel as long as they would be able to avoid all obstructions by doing so. I am not sure if there is quite room for this to happen especially as there will be an enemy BG in the way and they can't go within 1MU of an enemy BG obstructing a rout.

If they can't avoid all obstructions then they can't slide and if they don't slide a wheel would mean they burst through their own mounted.

I am open to sugestions as what people think should happen.

At the moment I think that the routers will wheel, not be able to shift, burst through their own troops then find enemy within 1MU of their front, stop and be removed.

Sorry Hammy - I can't follow who's doing what to who.

A diagram may be more helpful?

Sorry

Pete

Routers who cannot complete their rout are removed IIRC, do they have to burst through everything they can first though?

Of course if you are lucky they will rout through the same 2 friendly BG in consecutive JAPs then be unable to complete their rout in the next JAP due to enemy, as Pete knows

Can they shift one base width to the left, start wheel and burst trough their friends - but not end up with enemy within 1 MU to thier front, and thus not evaporate?

Here it is as a diagram:

Fulgrim wrote:Can they shift one base width to the left, start wheel and burst trough their friends - but not end up with enemy within 1 MU to thier front, and thus not evaporate?

You can only shift if as a result of the shift you avoid all obstructions IIRC.

philqw78 wrote:Routers who cannot complete their rout are removed IIRC, do they have to burst through everything they can first though?

Exactly and do they wheel through friends to get the right facing?

philqw78 wrote: Routers who cannot complete their rout are removed IIRC, do they have to burst through everything they can first though?

Exactly and do they wheel through friends to get the right facing?

During mine and Phil's game at Warfare, we came across an unusual situation where my flank march arrived and caused two BG's of LH to flee. they would have had to burst through another friendly Cavalry BG after the ninety degree turn. I had put some LH on the other side of this Cavalry BG so that the LH couldn't pass through.

We called the umpire.

Simon ruled that since the BG couldn't pass through there was no bursting through, I would therefore say no - they don't burst through and are just taken off where they stand.

Since they immediately turn or wheel towards their baseline they are destroyed immediatley IMO

I think the routers should be able to complete a 90 degree turn, as there should be 1 MU between them and your pursuing MF. Since one MU = approx 25mm and the rear-most routing MF base is 20mm deep there should be 45mm into which that 40m-wide base of routers can turn.

Thus, they turn 90, find their path blocked by enemy, and are removed from the table. No need to worry about bursting through.

Marc

I don't belive that they have to wheel at the start of the move. So would they perhaps go forward the 40mm or so to clear the rear of the blue foot and then start the wheel?

babyshark wrote:I think the routers should be able to complete a 90 degree turn, as there should be 1 MU between them and your pursuing MF. Since one MU = approx 25mm and the rear-most routing MF base is 20mm deep there should be 45mm into which that 40m-wide base of routers can turn.

Thus, they turn 90, find their path blocked by enemy, and are removed from the table. No need to worry about bursting through.

Marc

If the routers had not had to drop a file back to make their initial rout that would have been the case. In this situation the routers had to contract to get past the melee and as a result were only 5mm from the front of the pursuers. If they could turn it would be a simple question and they would be removed.

grahambriggs wrote:I don't belive that they have to wheel at the start of the move. So would they perhaps go forward the 40mm or so to clear the rear of the blue foot and then start the wheel?

Interesting thought. I will have a check and see if that is the case.

My opinion - and it's been wrong before......

If they can't turn and they can't wheel they are destroyed.

except.... It does look like they can wheel through their own cavalry (bursting through) 90deg towards the top of the page, drop back a file (to be one base wide) and skirt up the side of the blue BG.
They'll pass completely through the cavalry.

Actually looking at the rules I think Terry may well have a point.

The wording in the rules is

Make a normal distance move toards their sides rear table edge, making wheels and/or turns as appropriate to end their move as close to the rear table edge as possible.

We have already proved that they can't turn initially because of the contraction and enemy troops being in the way.

A wheel through the cavalry and a slide or a wheel and a contraction past the end of the engaged spearmen would let the routers get away. It would mean they burst through the cavalry but as they would get partly into the cavalry they would pass all the way through and not prevent a charge on the rear of the spearmen.

On the other hand there is the point that a routing BG can only contract or slide if it manages to avoid all obstructions as a result.

Where the complication arises is that the BG cannot turn without bursting through friends so if you consider the burting through during the wheel as compulsary then the shift is allowed.

Thanks for the diagram Hammy - combined with the picture it looks very clear.

The picture appears to show that there is at least a 40mm wide gap between your cav BG and the other enemy BG facing up the table?

Why can't the routers contract to one base wide and wheel through the gap, without the need to burst through?

Pete

Because, and I think this was Hammy's original point, to do so they will have to pass through friends during the wheel.

Because, and I think this was Hammy's original point, to do so they will have to pass through friends during the wheel.

From the picture this does not appear to be the case?

P108 first bullet says how routers must move. 2nd bullet says what they do if there's an obstruction - they move as evaders. Evaders can contract.

It seems fine to me but maybe I'm still looking at it wrongly?

Pete

nikgaukroger wrote:Because, and I think this was Hammy's original point, to do so they will have to pass through friends during the wheel.

Yup, that is IMO the issue.

There are two parts to a rout move. Normally in this situation the BG would turn 90 and then head straight to its table edge. Alternatively it could turn then wheel or just wheel (which is what we are looking at here I think)

The wheel will definitely clip the cavalry. If the wheel is allowed to include the shift and slides then you are right and there is room to pass through that gap.

A lot hangs on the meaning of:

making wheels and/or turns as appropriate to end their move as close to the rear table edge as possible.

Looking at this section of the rules again it is interesting to note that it says "wheels" and not "a wheel".

Perhaps what should happen is that a kinked column of routing MF end up between the cavalry and the rear of my spearmen thus preventing me being hit "up the chuf".

I now seem to have three distinct alternatives and am rapidly getting more confused.

Perhaps what should happen is that a kinked column of routing MF end up between the cavalry and the rear of my spearmen thus preventing me being hit "up the chuf".

That's how I would see it Hammy.

Only my opinion of course.

Pete

Questions like this are irresistible, aren't they?

First, stopping 1 MU from enemy only applies if the unit can't bypass the obstacle. You can pass closer to enemy in bypassing them.

Second, routers facing obstacles is conducted per the evade rules, which only provide for moving parallel to an obstacle if it is a table edge other than its baseline, camp, or terrain it can't enter or lacks movement to enter. Otherwise the evade rules provide specific options for dealing with obstacles. The line about moving as far toward the baseline at possible seemed to me indubitably intended to force players with a choice of several rout options to pick the one that moves them farthest to the rear rather than slowing their rout in a cheesy way, not to suggest added manoeuvre options not otherwise in the rout rules - that would actually take us back toward DBM disputes over foresight in routs and evades, wheeling early toward gaps in the line to avoid later obstructions rather than using straightforward and consistent mechanisms.

If they turn they stop since they can't bypass enemy and may not approach closer than 1 MU. Blocked, they are removed. If there is no room to turn they must wheel toward the baseline. If they wheel and the Cav were not in the way then they move 4 MU so wheel less than 90 degrees. If I am eyeballing it correctly they finish their move before they run into the 1 MU limit but that limit does not matter as they are i position to bypass the enemy by a shift back of the right file and continue on their way, assuming that in that next rout move no base exceeds one base width shift as part of the shifting back.

The Cavalry being there, they wheel and burst through the Cavalry "with no shifting or contraction being allowed at all" (p67). Per page 48 in a burst through rout they are moved to the full extent of their movement, then, if there is not room beyond the farthest BG they have burst through, they are destroyed. There not being room here, they burst through and are destroyed.

Can they instead wheel and into a kinked column? This touches again on those sticky kinky column question threads and takes me back to the issue of "must end in edge to edge and corner to corner contact with another base of the battle group." But fortunately that doesn't matter, since they can't shift back into a column unless the shift gets them past the obstacle, which it does not - and the limit on shifting is one base width. So it's back to wheeling through the Cavalry and being removed.

Critique?

philqw78 wrote:Routers who cannot complete their rout are removed IIRC

That's true if it is enemy that are causing the inability to complete their move.

Ian