Slitherine

Sorry, wasn't thinking. Was thinking of Pikes up at impact and even at melee, which would not be involved in this at all, unless MRR Triarii.

Cassius wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote:

Cassius wrote: I have been considering skipping the Roman Cav in order to expand the size of the army, but MRR is limited to 16 bases of Hastati/Principes. They are limited on Triarii as well.

Only if you're just looking at the Superior ones - you can have up to 48 Hastati/Principes bases in total.

Oh, so the limits do not span quality? I mean, I am not limited to 16 bases of Hastati/Principes total...just 16 veteran ones?

Correct - it is an upgrade not a wholesale replacement so you can upgrade part of your army but it need not be all.

nikgaukroger wrote:

Cassius wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote: Only if you're just looking at the Superior ones - you can have up to 48 Hastati/Principes bases in total.

Oh, so the limits do not span quality? I mean, I am not limited to 16 bases of Hastati/Principes total...just 16 veteran ones?

Correct - it is an upgrade not a wholesale replacement so you can upgrade part of your army but it need not be all.

Yeah, I checked my books when I got home last night, and I see it now. So yeah, I might skip the cav. MRR Cav are straight up Cavalry, not Light Horse. I might get a unit of Illyrian light horse to counter Cataphracts and other heavies.

Other than that, I am still thinking that I need to use a core of Italian or Pergamene Offensive Spearmen to counter the pikes. They would be over matched by the Pike bricks, but the Pike brick of 4x4 (2 units of 8 stand each deployed in double column) will cost 96 points. Countering them with MRR Legions is pricey at 112pts for a -.

If I use allied off spear, I can pin each pike block with only 64pts. and get the same - in Melee. (though also - in impact rather than no POA, but I am thinking I can manuever impact to be inconsequential if I use Medium Foot...maybe I am wrong there.)

So that takes a Pike brick in the teeth, and leaves the legions free to maneuver around for flank hits. I am not worried about skirmish, because Velites are cheap at 20pts for 4x, and they will do well against almost any lights in the game.

So now I need an anti-cataphract strategy, and I think I will be ready to whoop Seleucids.

Cataphracts are more expensive per frontage than superior legionaries, and you are equal at impact. Just focus on remaining steady (general + rear support) to force break of at the end of melee and use the fact that you should be able to overlap to grind them down. If you can manage to stop the cataphracts to break off they auto-drop cohesion = you win.

Cassius, Fulgrim is right. If using LRR your Leions start out a Superior Armoured Impact foot. The Thurephori can be HF Off spear, and the Illyrian MF Off Spear without needing an ally. The MRR can't all be Superior but you can loads more Off Spear.

I do play MRR actually. And I still think you are right. Though I think MRR are limited to 8 stands of optional troops, apart from the Italian auxiliary.

The Cataphracts are Heavily Armored (or can be), so they will have a + for better armor in Melee, and I think the Off Spear will have a + for 2 ranks. Even in Melee.

This does seem to be a good choice to blunt both the pikes and the cats.

Cassius - MRR total bases of optional troops is NOT limited to 8. In total you can have 60 bases of optional troops if you have the points to spare. You can have 2 BG each of 6 bases of Thurephori / Illyrians. However any another points on optional troops might be wasted.

timmy1 wrote:Cassius - MRR total bases of optional troops is NOT limited to 8. In total you can have 60 bases of optional troops if you have the points to spare. You can have 2 BG each of 6 bases of Thurephori / Illyrians. However any another points on optional troops might be wasted.

No, this is wrong. From the list "Apart from Italian allied foot, no more than 8 bases can be used from the optional troops list."

Footslogger, you are correct, I missed that.

Cassius wrote: So now I need an anti-cataphract strategy, and I think I will be ready to whoop Seleucids.

I've found elephants to be exceedingly helpful in countering knights and cataphracts, I believe even the MRR can get some in through allies? (Numidians?) Only problem is you get so few of them to counter quite a number of cat units...

Cassius wrote:So now I need an anti-cataphract strategy

Cataracts are very easy to remove. There's been a surgical proceedure for this for years

Ian

DaiSho wrote:

Cassius wrote:So now I need an anti-cataphract strategy

Cataracts are very easy to remove. There's been a surgical proceedure for this for years

Ian

So true, my elderly grandmother had cataphracts - until they were fixed anything big looked like an elephant.

Think you are looking to much at POA:s and to little at tactics. I belive there is no DreamTeam in FoG, work with what you have got instead. Ive killed (as in picking them off until autobreak) superior drilled cataphracts using 1 BG 4 avg LH bow + 1 BG 6 avg LF slingers and some LF bows that joined at the end. That could not been read out of POA:s etc.

At SlemCon i broke 3 "knight-armies" using Principate romans w/o allies. In all games it was the legionaries that took care of the knights. (well vs the Med germans I managed to avoid combat with one of the BGs of knights to be correct). Further some swizz pikes was smashed by a joint effort of 4 avg prot bow (flank charge), 4 sup Cv lsp sw and a coup-de-grace by 4 avg lsp sw charging the swizz rear in the next turn. You just have to set up the combats to your advantage, can be tricky but thats the fun part of the game!

Fulgrim wrote:Think you are looking to much at POA:s and to little at tactics. I belive there is no DreamTeam in FoG, work with what you have got instead. Ive killed (as in picking them off until autobreak) superior drilled cataphracts using 1 BG 4 avg LH bow + 1 BG 6 avg LF slingers and some LF bows that joined at the end. That could not been read out of POA:s etc.

yeah, but so far I have nothing. I am still painting up my army.

Fulgrim wrote:At SlemCon i broke 3 "knight-armies" using Principate romans w/o allies. In all games it was the legionaries that took care of the knights. (well vs the Med germans I managed to avoid combat with one of the BGs of knights to be correct). Further some swizz pikes was smashed by a joint effort of 4 avg prot bow (flank charge), 4 sup Cv lsp sw and a coup-de-grace by 4 avg lsp sw charging the swizz rear in the next turn. You just have to set up the combats to your advantage, can be tricky but thats the fun part of the game!

This is good to hear. I am sure I can come up with something. I was thinking Triarii would be a good foil to lancers.

Cataphracts are more expensive per frontage than superior legionaries, and you are equal at impact. Just focus on remaining steady (general + rear support) to force break of at the end of melee and use the fact that you should be able to overlap to grind them down. If you can manage to stop the cataphracts to break off they auto-drop cohesion = you win.

A variation on the above is to advance your Romans after the cats have broken off. The cats fall back 4 MU, the Romans advance 3MU and next turn the cats have to charge (or test not to charge). Once the cats charge again and then break off they fall back another 4 MU, this way you can force them back into their own support lines or eventually off the table.