Slitherine

This is a pretty old game now so not many people playing it unfortunately

IainMcNeil wrote:This is a pretty old game now so not many people playing it unfortunately

This, however, means, that to fully explore the game's capabilities, I must run many other tests!

I've tried possum's "Britannicus" mod and I liked it.



As always - just in case the image disappears...:

BRITANNICUS' BRAVE BODYGUARDS:

(Hard)

Legate 18
Auxilia 16
Velites 17
Archers 17
Archers 17
Nobles 16
Nobles 16
Nobles 15
Warriors 12
Warriors 11
Archers 14
Archers 13

Gold: 2943
Fame: 167185
First Loss: Lucius' Ambush


Shame that I haven't done notes during the playing, but nevermind.

Imho the opening scenario is a bit too hard, or maybe too random.
I played till the scen_7 or so, but then I decided to restart the thing as I was unsatisfied with the progress and with an army composition. I'd be much more pleased if possum gave us 25 more Denarii before leaving for Britain, so that I may buy the second Auxilia, but well, he knew what and why he did.
Thus I've kept the Velites, although I'm not the greatest fan of them. They're neither a real light infantry nor real shooters, but well, when I see their level, it looks like they're not completely useless.

As always, I've decided to skip the heavy infantry section. Their sanctions in harsh terrain combined with their low speed are too much. I rather use heavy cavalry that is extremely fast and saves itself lots of trouble thanks to high Trample skill.

Some of the battles were so so, namely Rubicon is very frustrating and I replayed it ten times, until finaly making it through. The scenarios towards the end are bit too easy, mainly the ones where the enemy force is a small one. Imho the final battle could be more epic again. But nevermind.

I really liked the opening stages, very RPG, very atmospheric. The Roman/Celtic army is also a fun aspect. I think that the author could have gave us a Scouts + Auxilia + Velites starting army (and design the battles accordingly), not only because the Militia sucks, but also because it'll be a little mixed army. But this is unimportant whining, of course.

Conclusion: I liked it a lot.


I can't tell what now, but I surely won't be leaving the world of Legions anytime soon.

Glad to hear it!

I returned to one of my previous tries...

EIGHT COLOURS OF RAINBOW AKA THE ARMY OF LIGHT

(Hard)



Legate 81
Scouts 41
Peasants 37
Militia 54
Auxilia 36
Skirmishers 32
Velites 39
Auxiliary Archers 31

Denarii: 0
Fame: 417 735
First Loss: can't really tell...

So, as you might see I bought only the light troops, and only one of each, and (except for the Scouts) only in the order of appearance. There's a reason why I bought the Scouts for the very first mission, a reason other than the usual "I want my horsemen to be first in a row". In fact I was able to get through the second scenario with only the Peasants and Militiamen, but honestly - it's totally random. You may just as well end wiped out by the level 4 light infantry. If only one could purchase the Auxilia here, but some 25 gold pieces are missing.
I also must remind anyone still viewing this thread of the (in)famous Men in Black scenario, where the Scouts and their high Trample is very useful.

As you may notice, I finished without a single Denari and I'm quite glad of it. As long as I'm not using the pin cushions (I haven't even used a temporary units, even though that I had enough money to purchase a tempo Militia or two), I need every penny to be spent on a survival tools. When it comes to fial score, I value Fame over Gold, or better said - this run can't be compared to my previous ones, so I don't care of money left, mainly when I need my eight men to have a solid punch. The only thing I skipped was some needless elite stuff for the leader (Falx). Otherwise my guys had nearly everything possible, including a level 8 swords, Ajax Banner and lots of other paraphernalia.

I can't remember some extremely hard scenarios, but well, with a force of mine, every time limit battle was a run for a life.

On squads:

Legate: Truly extremely high level of Exp. Either the hard difficulty gives much more, or maybe the reason is other - he takes away some of the Exp from the rest of the army, and my army made lots of Exp, as I was using very inferior squads, Paesants anyone? I can't really judge his overall effectiveness, but this guy ain't meant to fight... most of the times.

Scouts: Amazing unit. See the * below.

Peasants: Well, needless to say, but these were purchased just because I must have done so. At least they made a good decoy.

Militia: Check the final level. Of course that they are not the best unit ever, but if you keep them in harsh terrain, they may withstand a lot. Once they got past a level 20 or so, they became really dangerous.

Auxilia: Best h-2-h light infantry. Need to evaluate?

Skirmishers: These guys are Peasants of the missile troops. Keep them out of harm and they're good, but well, when you have just eight units, it's not that easy. I think that they were routed quite often. But I don't remember that they annoyed me anyhow, so maybe they weren't that soft.

Velites: Although I dislike both skirmishers units because they're neither real swordsman nor real shooters, the Velites indisputedly seem to be useful. I gave them some h-2-h gear pretty fast, so that they may offer some resistence.

Auxiliary Archers: Best shooter. Need to evaluate?


Maybe it's a bit strange, but even when playing with just eight units (well, maybe BECAUSE of playing with just eight units), I had very little time to watch the battles and gain some idea of each troop's effectiveness. It's not that hard to notice the Archers, as they start to make a noise before anybody else. And I also understood that Scouts are powerful unit, at least if the heaps of horseshoes indicate anything. But other than that, I had not much spare time, as playing with so little units and moreover withut any support is quite arduous.


I liked this, although I bit of a ran through it and haven't really played it with my usual patience and enjoyment. Looks like I was too anxious of the final result. Btw, I realized that on my previous runs (that weren't meant as a Peasants' joke!) I finished at 422 345 (LA) and lately 404 595 (GBoR), so my today's result (417 735) is by no means bad. But yeah, I wasted a loads of Denarii.


Note:
*) Over the months (well, years maybe?) I designed a very powerful horsemen tactic, one that I had much success with. Unless the map dictates otherwise, I run the cavalry into the nearest/most dangerous enemy and then Trample-Disengage-Trample until the squad is either crippled or routed. The initial clash carries away nearby enemy squads, of course. This way I may lead an enemy cluster right before my shooters and once they engage with guards (optimal situation is enemy heavies vs. my lights in swamp/rough), I encircle the cluster and trample over routed enemy, gaining precious amount of horrid experiences... or vice versa? Once the cluster starts to melt, I ran the horsemen into the fray, destroying the opposition and overrunning both the initialy routed and the guys leaving the cluster. By this time rest of the enemy troops starts to pester me, so you just can't always use this tactic, but well, horsemen are fast enough to run away if any danger pops up, and they also may either lead another units into doom, or just destroy the incoming enemy (mainly Skirms).
Maybe this looks like a needless trick or even a cheat on game design. I don't care of the latter, as there are other game features (like the disengagement-failure bug) that work against me, but I wish to evaluate on the "unnecessary waste of time" argument. First of all, there's nothing like unnecessary exp. Of course that time from time I was too greedy and instead of using my Scouts to the very best result, I moved them where they were of no use. But any scenario where you may guide the enemy units into a big cluster that you may lately encircle with your horsemen, so that the routed enemy squads automatically undergo Trample kills while they sieve through your cavalry, brings a lots of fresh new experiences to your mounted troops.
If the Trample-Disengage-Trample tactic is solid, the Encircle-and-Sieve trick is plain amazing.
One last note: yes, you need to upgrade the Trample skill, of course.

EDIT: When using this tactic, you must not forget of several very important things.
First of all, the usual possum's upgrade path remains in use, except for a few differences. Rather than maximizing Feint and Drill, take the Trample whenever possible instead.You'll need at least some Drill to use your cavalry effectivelly, and you'll also need some Feint to upgrade Swordsman and to make some damage in hand-to-hand. But whatever "excess" level you find, upgrade the Trample skill. Depending on how exactly you'll upgrade, on level 13 or 14 you'll get the Frenzy skill.
The other important thing is that you can't skip the Drill, because you need it not only because of upgrade tree, but also because you want lots of free movement, if you wish to use cavalry properly.
Third thing to know. Although setting your cavalrymen into the offensive stance should bring more Trample kills, it's not always true, especially when you're about to hit an enemy in a defensive stance: this time it's better to be also in a defensive stance, because your formation is wider and the "landing surface" is also wider, thus making far more trample kills.
Another reason for attacking in a defensive stance is the fact that this way the cavalry won't break too deep into the enemy formation and thus has very little problems with disengagement. When you use aggressive formation, your cavalry breaks so deep that it either can't disengage at all, or at least some horsemen remain trapped in enemy line where their fate is short, cruel and bittersome.
When is the best time for disengagement? Immediatelly! In fact I hit the "Disengage" button as soon as it becomes active, because before the order takes place, cavalrymen just hit the enemy. You may give them one additional second, so that their wave hits with more strength, but it's not the best idea when there are lots of enemy squads all around. Your horsemen may easily become trapped.
This tactic is a little bit dull and needs some micromanagment, but the fact that you'll get lots of free experience (and namely the fact that these come from heavies) would be enough to justify the effort. The added bonus of losing very very little of your own men is... well, it's the added bonus of losing very very little of your men.

I've said to myself that I really shouldn't be wasting my time with Legion Arena... so I started Great Battles of Rome again.
But pretty soon I realized that I really dislike to skylark with all those weak starting units. GBoR is nice because the historic tree adds another strategy element - just like the hiding units do; unless you know the scenarios -, but Legion Arena is Legion Arena.
I love my elite guys, sorry rednecks, no time for your forks and stuff.


AUXILIARY LEGION

(Very Hard)



Legate 55
Auxiliary Cavalry 28
Auxilia 24
Auxilia 25
Velites 25
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 25
Velites 24
Auxilia 20
Auxilia 20
Auxiliary Cavalry 25

Denarii: 2945
Fame: 1 134 455
First Loss: Men in Black


Pretty straigthforward. I just added the two Velites, but I really can't tell if they are worth it. The way how the skirmishers act on the battlefield limits their usefulness quite a lot. And they are awful at hand-to-hand, which they inevitably enter from time to time, as my army is as small as possible.
I've used far less pin cushions to not lose experiences, mostly just one unit to eat the arrows and distract the enemy. Whenever possible, I just went on my own. This still wasn't enough to gain the Odd Bow. I also haven't bought any equipment over fifth level. Imho I should have concentrate on Fame hunt only, so that I don't compare apples and oranges.

I still can't decide on the right mix of infantry. I'm a great hater of heavy infantry, as they are slow, expensive and troublesome in harsh terrain. Also: by the time I can acquire them, my experienced Auxilia would be just a little bit worse, but would cost much less to heal. Otoh, maybe the big bad guys won't get hurt that easy?

I saved quite some money and still gained one thousand Fame, but well, this still doesn't look like a magic build, it's rather coincidence. (Although I played some battle pretty badly.) I also tend to be greedy with my cavalry and do loads of unnecessary overruns, instead of taking care of the whole battle.

Might be that ten-guys-only is the best build. It's no surprise that the less squads you have, the less squads you heal and equip. Otoh, the tempo units eat experiences, not to mention that with an extremely low number of core units, one may easily find some scenario unwinnable.

Last note: I like to have a symmetrical army, so maybe if I decided to add units in different order, I could be more successful. I really want to break the 1 140k threshold!

I'll try something different next time.

Well, that's interesting, you've certainly ended with a very elite force there. Although, I must politely disagree on the heavy infantry. I think they have their place.

So have you played the CoM add-on campaign? I'd be very interested to see how the endgame army posted above would fare in CoM.

possum wrote:Well, that's interesting, you've certainly ended with a very elite force there. Although, I must politely disagree on the heavy infantry. I think they have their place.

So have you played the CoM add-on campaign? I'd be very interested to see how the endgame army posted above would fare in CoM.

Yeah, I know that all other people have very good results with heavy infantry, but I can't manage and command it well. Maybe this could be the reason why I can't make it past the 1 140k?

I haven't played CoM, I'm not into fantasy...

Another possibility is that maybe a Militia could help. Not that I should switch all Auxilias for them, but maybe it'll be wise to start with double or triple Militia to gain Archers fast, then add Auxilia, then cavalry, then heavies...

What's your (usual) purchase order?

Aleksandr wrote:

possum wrote:Well, that's interesting, you've certainly ended with a very elite force there. Although, I must politely disagree on the heavy infantry. I think they have their place.

So have you played the CoM add-on campaign? I'd be very interested to see how the endgame army posted above would fare in CoM.

Yeah, I know that all other people have very good results with heavy infantry, but I can't manage and command it well. Maybe this could be the reason why I can't make it past the 1 140k?

I haven't played CoM, I'm not into fantasy...

Another possibility is that maybe a Militia could help. Not that I should switch all Auxilias for them, but maybe it'll be wise to start with double or triple Militia to gain Archers fast, then add Auxilia, then cavalry, then heavies...

What's your (usual) purchase order?

Hmm, purchase order...

To be honest, it's been so long since I played the stock Roman campaign, I don't even remember in detail. But here's what I saved at the end of the CoM campaign. Obviously, the troops will be more developed, but it'll show you the original purchase order, I suppose. The half-dozen Peasants (three more off screen you cannot see) are units I purchased near the end of the CoM campaign to use as bait or diversions



The Militia units were amusingly over-powered when the game was new, but the first patch nerfed them back to their appropriate level of effectiveness. The only time I use Militia in the end-game is with the Britannicus mod, in which I make it a point to keep my starting troops through the whole campaign, just for sentiment's sake

I'm back.

I've tried something a little bit different. But with all those tries in several past weeks, I can't tell if it is the army, who improves, or if it is just me and my memory.

AUXILIARY LEGION

(Very Hard)



Legate 62
Auxilia 28
Auxilia 29
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Cavalry 27
Auxiliary Cavalry 27
Auxiliary Cavalry 27

Denarii: 3415
Fame: 1 136 855
First Loss: can't really tell...


Hm, not even the asap Archers are asap enough to gain the Odd Bow, unless I'd wish to purchase two bows after the campaign was over...
This build is quite solid, but maybe I really miss some heavies. I can't tell if it wouldn't been better to cut the last Archers and one or two Cavalries to get some heavy infantry. But well, the cavalrymen are good at what they do and I'm not sure if Legionaries/Praetorians would be amazingly better. After all, the Trample skill makes many battles very "user friendly".

Another factor to count is that I really dislike to lose (and replay) scenarios. It's not only a question of atmosphere, house rules or lack of patience/stubborness, but rahter an acknowledgment of a fact that everyone may get through the campaign with some luck, but such an approach tells very little of an effectivity of a particular army's build. For example - with enough time and million tries, I may get through the campaign with four core units only and a load of tempo units and/or pin cushions. My score might be an amzing one, lets say over 1 150k (if a game allows that), but what does it tell about an effectivity of my army?
I'm on a hunt for the perfect army, not for the luckiest win. And that's also a reason for the "First Loss" column - the day I'd get through the campaign without a single lost scenario AND with a very high score, I'd say "this is the build". But as long as there will be nightmare scenarios, where in I struggle for survival, I can't justify any particular build.

However, all things counted, this is maybe too broad goal, as there are far too many factors that affect the final result. Thus it is veeery hard to unravel the veeery best composition, because every army acts differently under different circumstancies. Moreover, one may always completely spoil the battle that he otherwise won without much trouble, and vice versa, of course. (The perfect example of the latter is a Men in Black scenario, that was a nightmare of its own sort, but today I don't fear it much.) These are factors that make all the math unsure...

I also kept some gold, so maybe if I spent it, I'd get a better result. But well, do the six or seven hundred (with four hundred Denarii bound in double Velites) gold pieces make any difference? I could have bought some level six equipment, but would it be of any visible help? E.g. would it improve the final result by one or two thousand Fame? Dunno...

So, this run will make it into the history books just because of the funniest pin cushions ever - towards the end I've used Praetorians exclusively.

Well, Aleks, that's certainly interesting, and you are playing on Very Hard, where I've never really gone; I have to respect you very much for that. With Legion Arena now relegated to the category of "Classic Games" (i.e. moldy oldies), I'd have to say you are now the foremost practitioner of this game.

My problem with skipping Heavy Infantry entirely in favor of Cavalry is simply a matter of unit sizes. The cavalry units, at 24 troopers, are half the size of a Heavy Infantry unit with 48 grunts. The Cavalry will, one way or another, be rendered ineffective after 20 losses. Whereas the Heavy Infantry unit can absorb 20 casualties and remain combat effective. Especially in the CoM mod, this does become a major factor.

So, do you play CEAW?

possum wrote:Well, Aleks, that's certainly interesting, and you are playing on Very Hard, where I've never really gone; I have to respect you very much for that. With Legion Arena now relegated to the category of "Classic Games" (i.e. moldy oldies), I'd have to say you are now the foremost practitioner of this game.

Yeah, I always go through the whole game on VH, no downgrading of difficulty when things go bad...
I'm a bit addicted to LA, it's a very good game and has high replayability factor. Shame that there are few annoying bugs, but nevermind. After all, I may whine as loud as I wsh, but Slitherine won't fix those bugs, as the game is not the newest one.

possum wrote:My problem with skipping Heavy Infantry entirely in favor of Cavalry is simply a matter of unit sizes. The cavalry units, at 24 troopers, are half the size of a Heavy Infantry unit with 48 grunts. The Cavalry will, one way or another, be rendered ineffective after 20 losses. Whereas the Heavy Infantry unit can absorb 20 casualties and remain combat effective. Especially in the CoM mod, this does become a major factor.

You're right, that's a really good point.
Fact is that the best use of cavalry is the trample-disengage-trample overrun harvest, while in the hand-to-hand they suffer and once below 20, they lose effectivity (and morale) pretty fast.
So, for the manouver battles or against average enemies, they're amazing, but for the grindy battles, I see the point of heavy infantry. When we're at it - which heavies you consider the best? I am willing to use Praetorians only, but well, they are sooo expensive... while the other guys seem clunky, they all have their pros and cons and I can't decide. Non-Triarii guys are easily trampled, Triarii have no javelins (minor problem) and cost a lot (a bit more important).

possum wrote:So, do you play CEAW?

No. I believe that it's a quality game, but I'm already spending too much time gaming...

For Heavies, I have come to prefer the selection og 1 Triari, and 2 Legionaires. I specialize the Triari on Anti-Cav, Protection from Cav, and Stand Firm. (But be sure to select one or 2 Swordsman before buying the big spear.) I find the convenience of a dedicated anti-cav clear terrain unit worth the extra hundred denarii.

pgeerkens wrote:For Heavies, I have come to prefer the selection og 1 Triari, and 2 Legionaires. I specialize the Triari on Anti-Cav, Protection from Cav, and Stand Firm. (But be sure to select one or 2 Swordsman before buying the big spear.) I find the convenience of a dedicated anti-cav clear terrain unit worth the extra hundred denarii.

Ha, good idea!

And in GBoR, I set-up my (first) spearman the same way; But after the Triari mature I often leave the spearmen behid the line as they often will take too many casualties in the later scenarios, for limited punch.

I believe the spearman are under spec'ed, as I have tested one spearman and one peseant (to catcth the javelins) against one Auxilia, in clear terrain, and the Auxilia wins hands-down; To both be worth the same cost, tI believe this one should go to the spearmen, as the Auxilia are supposed to be disadvantaged in the terrain.

I also noticed that Spearmen are overall worse than Auxilia. Not to mention the difference in healing cost...

A little off topic: Imho the intial stage of the Celtic campaign is too user hostile. Namely the first two time limit battles (Chief's Sword and Greek Landing) are badly designed, the latter is plain disgusting
Chief's Sword is so random that it's not even funny, one may easily lose this scenario several times in a row; moreover, and this is what I find ridiculously ridiculous, the enemy General can withstand 45 seconds of Scouts' beating, no jokes.
The time limit for Greek Landing is extremely short no matter what, but the fact that the most faraway enemy units start their movement by running away is what turns this scenario into a dead's end.

I'm not against hard scenarios, but well, from what I've learned as a campaign designer, dungeon keeper, story teller, etc., you just can't make the start too difficult, unless you really wish to discourage (read: piss) the players.

I experimented with one unit of Triarii as a dedicated anti-cavalry unit, and I didn't like it. If I'm going to create a specialized clear-terrain anti-cavalry unit, I will use Praetorians.

My problem with Triarii is that they just don't get enough kills to advance very quickly.

I think this has to do with their relatively low melee attack, which is their percent chance of getting a hit. The only thing that really improves this is the Swordsman skill, and Triarii just don't get enough levels of that skill soon enough to compete, in my opinion.

There is also the fact that, (as I strongly suspect but have no way to prove), the dedicated anti-infantry and anti-cavalry skills have never worked. Think about this...
-When a ranged unit gets a critical, which is an instant kill, a little arrow icon floats up amid the numbers.
-When a cavalry unit gets a trample result, which is an instant kill, a little horseshoe icon floats up.
-When a melee unit gets a critical result, which should also be an instant kill, supposedly a little sword icon should float up.

But in all the hours I have spent playing LA, I have never once seen such a sword icon.

This is something I have talked about before, and I don't mean any disrespect to Iain or the other fine folks at Slitherine, but I just don't think that aspect of the game has ever worked right.

So I do not use any of the 4 specialized anti-cavalry or anti-infantry skills.

Incidentally, I don't use the Anti-Elephant Specialist skill either, just because there are too few battles against elephants. I understand why it's there, to portray the specialized techniques that the Romans developed for use against the Carthaginian elephants in the Second Punic War, but it just doesn't seem cost-effective.

The final skill I never use is Advanced Formations. I played with those and they just didn't seem useful.

Aleksandr wrote: I'm not against hard scenarios, but well, from what I've learned as a campaign designer, dungeon keeper, story teller, etc., you just can't make the start too difficult, unless you really wish to discourage (read: piss) the players.

I totally agree, and I wrestled with this a lot when designing the Britannicus mod. I tried to err on the side of making it too easy rather than too hard, but it's not easy.

pgeerkens, good to hear from you too. I have played with Spearman units, but never found them all that useful, for the same reasons I listed against the Triarii above - they just get too few kills to advance quickly enough to keep up.

Hi Possum,

re

But in all the hours I have spent playing LA, I have never once seen such a sword icon.

I too have never seen a sword icon - but I have seen horseshoes where there were no cavalry, only infantry with critical hits.

ANd in my experience as a programmer, it is much easier to make (and miss) an indexing error into a library of icons, than to completely omit designed functionality.

Also, I have extensively used the anti-/-protection skills, and found them of use to my units. My Triari have no difficulty gaining experience - both because I play then on Very Hard, and I because it tham against the AI's best cavalry.

Also, I give my Triari Anti-Cav critical hits, and Armor Piercing instead of Feint, the former which I find more useful later in the campaign, and against stronger units.