Slitherine

marioslaz wrote:I make a simple diagram to show how much nasty could be this tactic. I think we can call it "Space Warp Tactic"

I blieve there are some parts of the UK where this is called "The Mr Ben Manouvre" after the 1970s children's program where everything would be normal and then, by magic, "suddenly, the shopkeeper appeared".

Though I suspect using a column of LF to allow elephants to go faster than 4MU while traversing steep hills should be called "Hannibal".

It's a shame that the rules makers could not think of a good way to stop it

madcam2us wrote:Unless in an evade/rout move, an interpenetration can only pass through a BG in two ranks....

Columns are the issue as they provide the smell in the cheese....

.........
Madcam.

No not quite as you can go side to side of an 8 base BG in single rank. A plus 20 odd cm move.

Thus it wouldnt be allowed as its not in two ranks...

Madcam

madcam2us wrote:Thus it wouldnt be allowed as its not in two ranks...

Madcam

Well in two ranks you can still get through up to 24cm of troops end to end

Meaning the BG being interpenetrated can only be in two ranks.

Perhaps Modifiy to:

Unless in an evade/rout move, an interpenetration can only pass through a BG where both are in two ranks and then only front to rear or rear to front.

Madcam

philqw78 wrote:

madcam2us wrote:Thus it wouldnt be allowed as its not in two ranks...

Madcam

Well in two ranks you can still get through up to 24cm of troops end to end

OK. Max of two files or two ranks. Nice and simple solution.

Julian

Changed my solution to make it that both BGs have to be in two ranks as we are trying to recreate passage of lines...

Madcam.

So how about this scenario:

X
X
X...........D
X...........D
X...........D
X...........D
X
X

Where X are LF facing up and D are LH facing Left. Your solution would prevent the Light Horse from making a full move to the left and interpenetrating the LF (gaining no distance).

Not saying that there isn't a reasonable solution, but I think we need to be exceptionally CAREFUL.

madcam2us wrote:Unless in an evade/rout move, an interpenetration can only pass through a BG in two ranks....

Cheesy evasion: yellow enemy LH, red and cyan friendly LF

Even if you roll 1 LH cannot catch your LF.

1. Situation and distance at impact phase opponent turn. LH declare a charge
2. First LF evade. Even if you roll "1" they go out of LH reach.
3. Second LF is exposed by first evasion, so they evade and they go out of LH reach whatever score you get with dice.

After LH charge, in their turn LF BGs can easily re assume their relative position.

madcam2us wrote:Changed my solution to make it that both BGs have to be in two ranks as we are trying to recreate passage of lines...

Madcam.

So knights in battle formation would not be able to interpenetrate foot, not would Cav in a skirmishing formation. Single ranks should be able to pass through more easily. With the above solution put your knights in single rank behind the LF and they will not charge involuntarily.

I would have thought splitting the interpenetrated BG would be better.

Any bases reached are passed through. Any bases not reached are shifted forwards of the interpenetrating BG to make room, shifting friends where necessary. If there is not room to do this the move can not take place. Neither BG may then move until the BG being passed through has either evaded or completed a compulsory move or reform. Until this happens both BG are disordered and neither may shoot.

Cheesy evasion: yellow enemy LH, red and cyan friendly LF

Even if you roll 1 LH cannot catch your LF.

1. Situation and distance at impact phase opponent turn. LH declare a charge
2. First LF evade. Even if you roll "1" they go out of LH reach.
3. Second LF is exposed by first evasion, so they evade and they go out of LH reach whatever score you get with dice.


After LH charge, in their turn LF BGs can easily re assume their relative position.

Is this cheesy or just an example of a skirmishing cloud?

marioslaz wrote:

madcam2us wrote:Unless in an evade/rout move, an interpenetration can only pass through a BG in two ranks....

Cheesy evasion: yellow enemy LH, red and cyan friendly LF
Even if you roll 1 LH cannot catch your LF.

1. Situation and distance at impact phase opponent turn. LH declare a charge
2. First LF evade. Even if you roll "1" they go out of LH reach.
3. Second LF is exposed by first evasion, so they evade and they go out of LH reach whatever score you get with dice.

After LH charge, in their turn LF BGs can easily re assume their relative position.

If the LH roll a 6 they will catch the LF and if they break them in the impact catch both.

philqw78 wrote:

marioslaz wrote:

madcam2us wrote:Unless in an evade/rout move, an interpenetration can only pass through a BG in two ranks....

Cheesy evasion: yellow enemy LH, red and cyan friendly LF
Even if you roll 1 LH cannot catch your LF.

1. Situation and distance at impact phase opponent turn. LH declare a charge
2. First LF evade. Even if you roll "1" they go out of LH reach.
3. Second LF is exposed by first evasion, so they evade and they go out of LH reach whatever score you get with dice.

After LH charge, in their turn LF BGs can easily re assume their relative position.

If the LH roll a 6 they will catch the LF and if they break them in the impact catch both.

LH charges, doesn't pursue. So it doesn't roll at all and simply move 7 MU.

marioslaz wrote:LH charges, doesn't pursue. So it doesn't roll at all and simply move 7 MU.

?????????????????????????????
All targets of the LH evaded so it rolls a VMD, unless both LF were already fragmented and broke at declaration. In that case it doesn't need to catch them and wouldn't roll.

Although the first LF could have been fragged and the second disrupted. Then the first could break on declaration, the second drop to fragged seeing this and then break due to being charged whilst fragged.

philqw78 wrote:

marioslaz wrote:LH charges, doesn't pursue. So it doesn't roll at all and simply move 7 MU.

?????????????????????????????
All targets of the LH evaded so it rolls a VMD, unless both LF were already fragmented and broke at declaration. In that case it doesn't need to catch them and wouldn't roll.

Although the first LF could have been fragged and the second disrupted. Then the first could break on declaration, the second drop to fragged seeing this and then break due to being charged whilst fragged.

Sorry, you are right. I don't know what I'm thinking. Anyway, you get a big advantage because in other way a javeling armed LF would be caught near always. And you can use a second BG of just 4 bases in column, instead of a 6 bases BG in 3 rows.

Sorry, you are right. I don't know what I'm thinking. Anyway, you get a big advantage because in other way a javeling armed LF would be caught near always. And you can use a second BG of just 4 bases in column, instead of a 6 bases BG in 3 rows.

But then you get LH battlegroup B (who didn't charge) who sees a nice juicy column to go and shoot up now those pesky Javelinmen have gotten out of the way and can't get shot back due to the one shooting dice from a column.

It isn't as good as it seems.

dave_r wrote:So how about this scenario:

X
X
X...........D
X...........D
X...........D
X...........D
X
X

Where X are LF facing up and D are LH facing Left. Your solution would prevent the Light Horse from making a full move to the left and interpenetrating the LF (gaining no distance).

Not saying that there isn't a reasonable solution, but I think we need to be exceptionally CAREFUL.

Using my definition (pass through a max of two ranks or files) the LH are in one rank and the LF are in one file so if the LH only have enough move to get part through the LF, they are moved entirely through. If the LF BG was three files wide then either the LH has enough move to go entirely through the LF or it stops on the near side.

Julian

Once again we are at a point where we could use some author intervention.

For my part I will try not to deliberately engineer this scenario. It would be helpful if others would agree to do the same....

There is some similarity between this thread and the one on cheesy terrain - the use of a road to restrict a flank. I've tried to do this myself and on reflection I shouldn't have done - it is cheese - even though the rules allow it.

I will pursue the Gandhi option - be the change you want to see - and undertake not to do this again. I can still field a River and 2 open areas. Or as Julian has noted elsewhere, tournament organisers could stipulate that all Roads must be placed last - that would kill the road abuse.

Not sure there's such an easy solution to this one though.

To put it into context - it is about the only serious wrinkle we've found thus far - don't let it put you off FOG!

Could you go and repeat that in the Italian speaking forum, where I believe they are about to start burning effigy's of me...

petedalby wrote:To put it into context - it is about the only serious wrinkle we've found thus far - don't let it put you off FOG!

You can be sure this will not do it. But, as I said in Italian forum, I'm not worried for my situation, because I play only with 3-4 friends who never would use a similar rubbish (in Italian forum I learned a new way to use it with which someone made a BG of elephant to fly over a brush Dumbo style). I'm worried for some friends who like FOG and who left DBM due to nasty use of rules by so called top-players.