Slitherine

honvedseg wrote:If you look at how the NKE army actually fared against the Assyrians, the Kushites, and other armies of the period, their "lack-lustre" performance in these rules is historically accurate. Those 8 stands of "protected" archers represent the acknowledgement, too little and too late, that sending masses of unarmored levies against armored professional troops wasn't necessarily a good idea.

If you look at the NKE army historically, you might notice that the other opponents such as the Assyrians and the Kushites that you mentioned are ones who existed after the end of the New Kingdom, so I don't see much relevant historical data to be used for a comparison.

The interesting thing is if you look at previous lists (DB*) for other rules the Egyptian Bow and infantry where pretty good troops - in fact dominate against the Hittites of the period. I guess that this is not historical? Currently they look to be crushed by some historical opponents, and will be soiling themselves at the site of any Sea People impact foot.

Currently they are garbage to be minimized. Hmm, I do think I will only sabat and not rebase though, you never know in a few years another rule set may give them some life....

Now, thouse Assyrians on the other hand......thoose boys will be coming out! Heck, the Trojan War lists aren't that bad either!

For those that do not consider NKE to be a good bet, rather than leave them in the box, why not morph them into 22nd Dynasty (Libyan) Egyptians?

There is no reason to suppose that 22nd dynasty chariots would not look much the same as NKE ones.

IanB3406 wrote:The interesting thing is if you look at previous lists (DB*) for other rules the Egyptian Bow and infantry where pretty good troops - in fact dominate against the Hittites of the period. I guess that this is not historical?

The old interpretation of the Hittite foot as depicted in the Kadesh reliefs is thought to be wrong - see the notes to the Hittite list. The inefficacy of the Hittite foot under previous rules was the result of that (probable) misinterpration. According to the new interpretation they should be classified the same as Egyptian close fighters - hence in DBM they would be Bd(F).

Likewise the old interpretation of the Hittite chariots as HCh is also thought to be wrong.

So if the interpretations currently thought most likely to be correct are used, Hittite troops should be much the same as Egyptians, though with less MF archers.

Unfortunately, for the sake of backwards compatibility with existing armies and for those who continue to believe the old interpretations, we still allow the option for Hittite troops to be classified as per the old interpretations. This does, unfortunately, give rather more scope to tournament minimaxers who may have little interest in the actual history.

For those that do not consider NKE to be a good bet, rather than leave them in the box, why not morph them into 22nd Dynasty (Libyan) Egyptians?

There is no reason to suppose that 22nd dynasty chariots would not look much the same as NKE ones.

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This is a much better list in my opinion as well......

What figures to use as the MESHWESH? Could I morph them from the Sea Peoples?

Ian

Meshwesh were Libyans FWIW.

batesmotel wrote:

honvedseg wrote:If you look at how the NKE army actually fared against the Assyrians, the Kushites, and other armies of the period, their "lack-lustre" performance in these rules is historically accurate. Those 8 stands of "protected" archers represent the acknowledgement, too little and too late, that sending masses of unarmored levies against armored professional troops wasn't necessarily a good idea.

If you look at the NKE army historically, you might notice that the other opponents such as the Assyrians and the Kushites that you mentioned are ones who existed after the end of the New Kingdom, so I don't see much relevant historical data to be used for a comparison.

That's WHY the New Kingdom no longer existed; its military proved no match for the better equipped Libyan, Kushite, and other armies that conquered it in succession. When the Assyrian army invaded it, much later, the "improved" Kushite Egyptian troops were still badly outclassed.

rbodleyscott wrote: Unfortunately, for the sake of backwards compatibility with existing armies and for those who continue to believe the old interpretations, we still allow the option for Hittite troops to be classified as per the old interpretations. This does, unfortunately, give rather more scope to tournament minimaxers who may have little interest in the actual history.

Hoorah! So anyone who beats my NKE with Hittites is basically "cheating"

At least that makes me feel a little better

madaxeman wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: Unfortunately, for the sake of backwards compatibility with existing armies and for those who continue to believe the old interpretations, we still allow the option for Hittite troops to be classified as per the old interpretations. This does, unfortunately, give rather more scope to tournament minimaxers who may have little interest in the actual history.

Hoorah! So anyone who beats my NKE with Hittites is basically "cheating"

Tim,

I thought we had already established that anyone who beat you at all was either

a) cheating

or

b) playing in an unsporting manner

or

c) exploiting rules that had been designed with the sole purpose of victimising you.

to support tim :

come in france and play against me : you will be able to add :

you win because :

d) you play better than your opponent



marco tim's fan

honvedseg wrote:

batesmotel wrote:

honvedseg wrote:If you look at how the NKE army actually fared against the Assyrians, the Kushites, and other armies of the period, their "lack-lustre" performance in these rules is historically accurate. Those 8 stands of "protected" archers represent the acknowledgement, too little and too late, that sending masses of unarmored levies against armored professional troops wasn't necessarily a good idea.

If you look at the NKE army historically, you might notice that the other opponents such as the Assyrians and the Kushites that you mentioned are ones who existed after the end of the New Kingdom, so I don't see much relevant historical data to be used for a comparison.

That's WHY the New Kingdom no longer existed; its military proved no match for the better equipped Libyan, Kushite, and other armies that conquered it in succession. When the Assyrian army invaded it, much later, the "improved" Kushite Egyptian troops were still badly outclassed.

The end of the New Kingdon was primarily a matter of a political devolution/collapse of central authority in Egypt rather than being due to military conquest from outside.

marco wrote:to support tim :
come in france and play against me : you will be able to add :
you win because :
d) you play better than your opponent
marco tim's fan

Unlikley... however I will be giving playing in Italy a go this summer

rbodleyscott wrote:

madaxeman wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: Unfortunately, for the sake of backwards compatibility with existing armies and for those who continue to believe the old interpretations, we still allow the option for Hittite troops to be classified as per the old interpretations. This does, unfortunately, give rather more scope to tournament minimaxers who may have little interest in the actual history.

Hoorah! So anyone who beats my NKE with Hittites is basically "cheating"

Tim,
I thought we had already established that anyone who beat you at all was either
a) cheating
or
b) playing in an unsporting manner
or
c) exploiting rules that had been designed with the sole purpose of victimising you.

Well, to paraphrase Churchill, with the Hittites it sounds like all three

rbodleyscott wrote:For those that do not consider NKE to be a good bet, rather than leave them in the box, why not morph them into 22nd Dynasty (Libyan) Egyptians?

There is no reason to suppose that 22nd dynasty chariots would not look much the same as NKE ones.

Apart from the go faster stripes & furry dice ?

marco wrote:to support tim :

come in france and play against me : you will be able to add :

you win because :

d) you play better than your opponent

Not in Tim's case - see Hannibal's comments

in france we won't give a visa passport to hannibal, is not eurepean contrary to the englishman tim

but tim prefer to go to italy, a place appreciate by the lybian leader

anyway he didn't go back to his country after a good tournament

and gave up any rule in carthage

marco

Hoorah! So anyone who beats my NKE with Hittites is basically "cheating"

At least that makes me feel a little better

Interesting. I just wiped the floor with a Hittite army using NKE's.

Another try at the Neo Assyrian list:

4x TC
1x8 HF/MF Av Arm Drilled, 1/2 LS/Sw 1/2 Bow
2x8 MF Av Prot Drilled, 1/2 LS/Sw 1/2 Bow
2x4 Hch Sup Drilled Bow
2x4 Cav Sup Arm Drilled 1/2 Bow/Sw 1/2 LS/Sw
1x4 Cav Elite Arm Drilled LS/Bw*/Sw
1x4 LH Av Unpr Undr Bow
2x6 LF Poor Unpr Undr Bow

11 Bg, 800 pts, +1 initiative

An Assyrian army very similar to this one won the tournament of the Nerviens this year (and crushed my army in the process... though this part is quite easy )

Okay, I'm very late to the party on this one, having just picked up Swifter than Eagles Now that the book has been out for a little while does anyone have more to report on how the various armies fare against one another? How do the NKE do against the Sea Peoples and Early Libyans for instance? And which armies do folks folks like from the book for use against other STE armies?

Cheers,

Dale

I, too, would like to see more people's opinions on the sorts of lists that work for my favourite armies.

I've had mediocre to poor results so far with my NKE, but more success with my Late Dynastic - both with and without heavy chariots - and my one game with the Kushites (against Assyrians, no less) was a draw.

I haven't tried the Old/Middle Kingdom, because I don't have enough stuff on the right sized bases, and I'll need to rebase the Wb(S) before I can try the Libyans.

So, who's got a NKE list they've been successful with? Anyone?

johno