Slitherine

Locarnus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:44 pm I'm especially curious how some of those changes affect the way the grand campaign is played.
Eg no AI spam removes the need to count enemy core units and rush to the last enemy flags to prevent or control purchase spam.
Rule of 1 makes the core much more varied and the best units much more special.
And so on.

I will have to see the exact unit balance to make a judgement call I think...
I agree with all above excepting one point. You need a 7 initiative difference to "guarantee" no retaliation due to the dice roll for initiative, which can swing +2 either direction.

I am not certain how much Soren's playthrough can be extrapolated to the mod/add-on, since the main constraint here is limited good units, so it should be about setting up unassailable chokepoints and maximizing the chaff, rather than maximizing a strong force already. Experience seems to be a non-issue if planned around appropriately. Hopefully I can catch up to goose soon enough

So, I have also been thinking about starting a multiplayer playthrough of BE, should I use McGuba's or is yours set up for mp compatibility?

If so I want to give my opponent an advantage, so should I let them have a +1, 2, or hold on to my buttcheeks, a +3 advantage?

If you can try and pay my sons broadcast a visit today, it will be his Dieppe playthrough and may give you some ideas on making the West side compatible. (I had to help him with how to beat that scenario.)

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:02 am I will have to see the exact unit balance to make a judgement call I think...
I agree with all above excepting one point. You need a 7 initiative difference to "guarantee" no retaliation due to the dice roll for initiative, which can swing +2 either direction.

Ah, yeah, those ini rolls can be brutal on units that rely on ini for their defense, like thin skinned Marders.
Speaking of those, the camo trait in AT mode takes some time to get used to and fully utilize, but building traps with it can make all the difference. Compensating a lot of the lower bonus attack per experience level for AT class.

goose_2 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:40 pm So, I have also been thinking about starting a multiplayer playthrough of BE, should I use McGuba's or is yours set up for mp compatibility?

If so I want to give my opponent an advantage, so should I let them have a +1, 2, or hold on to my buttcheeks, a +3 advantage?

If you can try and pay my sons broadcast a visit today, it will be his Dieppe playthrough and may give you some ideas on making the West side compatible. (I had to help him with how to beat that scenario.)

Locarnus Addon is unfortunately incompatible with BE multiplayer and will most likely stay that way.

As far as I know, McGuba got a lot of feedback from the Duedman vs HerzogSieg multiplayer youtube matches.
So I assume a BE 2.5 is being worked on?
Personally I would consider waiting for that for multiplayer.
In terms of opponent advantage, depends on who you are playing against, and Axis might be harder than Allies?

I'll try for your sons broadcast today, though can't guarantee that I'll be able to attend (due to it being a Wednesday).

Locarnus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 4:12 pm Ah, yeah, those ini rolls can be brutal on units that rely on ini for their defense, like thin skinned Marders.
Speaking of those, the camo trait in AT mode takes some time to get used to and fully utilize, but building traps with it can make all the difference. Compensating a lot of the lower bonus attack per experience level for AT class.

Yep, agreed. I got too spoiled by camo AA/AT in Sonja's mods, so have to readjust to AT only...

Speaking of (and mods let me know if not allowed) we have a wargaming discord, which Panzer Corps technically meets the qualifications of would be interested to chat with longtime PC1 players there:
https://discord.gg/Eb4K5zVb

Its heyday was War in the East 1 days but looking to get it more active as well. You can share videos (@goose) and probably get an additional audience.

Just a preview of my core (while thinking about last 3 deployment deployment slots on Maginot Line). Right columns are deployed, left columns are reserve.
Prestige = 12,635 on FM R
- ~2500 of this is from extraneous level bombers for training, ~3000 from extra artillery, and ~2500 from class swaps. If I didn't do this, I would have > 20,000, which is still a far cry from my imported cores for 1942, which are nearing 35,000-40,000. I say earlier I'm playing "blind" in that I haven't touched GC in a while and don't quite remember where/when counterattacks/air waves are. I am also taking some hidden AT hits and playing pretty conservatively. If I knew where all units were/inactive status I could play a bit more loosely but at that point it's (even more of) a spreadsheet rather than fun

I have quite a few units close to their first hero (mid 200's). I am training up 4 new artillery from scratch, since fortifications have a very high defense, giving more experience. I have fairly limited frontline units am haven't decided if I am actually going to forgo a decisive victory here just to gain more experience. Note that I have my real core artillery fully overstrengthened, but the training artillery is not, and they all have the cheapest transports. (I'm not actually sure if it wouldn't actually be better to overstrengthen them to get more hits tbh). I don't have good air heroes, but I anticipate an 80% defensive air force in the late game, given the cost of taking random overstrength shots from very very fast enemy mobile AA on roads. It might actually be a blessing to have defense heroes. I have 9 reserve artillery in high 200s-325 experience. I will max out experience on all of them and convert ~4-5 to front line in 1941 and then probably the rest in 1942 once XP cap hits 4 stars.

Food for thought: I am wanting most of my end-game units to sit at 4 star with 2 heroes. The alternative would be mid-3 stars with possibly 3 heroes. What is the expected value of a random hero? 5 stats can be gained by heroes. Assume spotting is useless past the first 1-2 units that get it. IIRC it's 1/2 chance for 1 attack/defense, 1/3 for 2, and 1/6 for 3, so the EV would be 10/6 = 1.66. Initiative is probably worth around 2 stat points, and let's say movement is worth around 2 stat points in the mod where we can swap classes, so each hero average gives 1.46 stat points. A level up instead gives around 5 relevant stat point, although attack/defense heroes cover 2 stats each. Clearly, though, it's much worth getting more stars on units quicker, barring the utility heroes and unique application of say +3 stat heroes. Also less stress fishing for first heroes

I will fill out my infantry corps later on with artillery that get defense heroes, most likely, and tank corps with initiative heroes. I changed 2/3 of my Std infantry to camo PaK 4.7 to creep up on the forts here as needed.

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:18 pm Yep, agreed. I got too spoiled by camo AA/AT in Sonja's mods, so have to readjust to AT only...

Speaking of (and mods let me know if not allowed) we have a wargaming discord, which Panzer Corps technically meets the qualifications of would be interested to chat with longtime PC1 players there:
https://discord.gg/Eb4K5zVb

Its heyday was War in the East 1 days but looking to get it more active as well. You can share videos (@goose) and probably get an additional audience.

Ah yes, coming from Sonja's mods it is a downgrade.
Unfortunately camo AA would not work with the strat bombing mechanic of Battlefield Europe.
Hm, thinking about it, that could be used to distinguish between the small caliber "tactical" AA and the big caliber "strategic" AA. I'll have to test that at some point, once I have a bit more time again.

That discord is a good recommendation as well!
I stepped away from discord itself some time ago, but if I go back to it I'll certainly keep it in mind.

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:30 pm [...] I don't have good air heroes, but I anticipate an 80% defensive air force in the late game, given the cost of taking random overstrength shots from very very fast enemy mobile AA on roads. It might actually be a blessing to have defense heroes. [...]

One of the significant gameplay changes I had to adapt to, is the necessity for spending prestige on elite reinforcement during a scenario. Instead of waiting for the next deployment phase, like most old school players have been accustomed to do since the Panzer General days (myself included).
Playing BE certainly helped with that, since it is mainly one big scenario anyway.

The replacements have also been modified, both in terms of cost and experience retained, see the gamerules file.
Making scenario elite replacements only 1.5 times as expensive as campaign elite replacements (instead of factor 2 in the unmodded game).
ScnReplaceCost .......25
ScnEReplaceCost......75
CamReplaceCost......10
CamEReplaceCost.....50

While normal campaign replacements are not free anymore, they also provide more experienced replacements than before (50% instead of 30%).
GreenReplacementsExp...50


I like the usage of the desert paint to distinguish the units a bit more.
I do not see a big artillery in your lineup (21cm or 17cm). Are you waiting for a movement hero to use on those?

Thats a big core already, with campaign heroes still joining later on. I guess it depends on your savegame reloading philosophy for the random heroes. This many arty and strat bombers trained up would allow you to diband units that get the wrong first heroes, instead of reloading for a better on.

Once you reach Minsk 41, will you keep or disband Recon Rudel?
That unit is a bit more useful now, though it might be a bit odd to have both (like having both Rikers in Starfleet - in the Star Trek universe).

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:30 pm [...] Initiative is probably worth around 2 stat points, and let's say movement is worth around 2 stat points in the mod where we can swap classes, so each hero average gives 1.46 stat points. [...]

Ini usefulness varies a lot. Sometimes it can be worth more than 2 stat points, often it is probably worth only half as much as an attack or defense stat point, or it can be worth nothing (attacking ground targets with an aircraft).
Except for a fitting utility hero or an attack 3 hero, I would think that an additional experience level is worth more than a hero, especially the odd experience levels for many classes due to the ini boost.

Locarnus wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 8:52 pm One of the significant gameplay changes I had to adapt to, is the necessity for spending prestige on elite reinforcement during a scenario. Instead of waiting for the next deployment phase, like most old school players have been accustomed to do since the Panzer General days (myself included).

Yes, I noticed all those changes. Still too cheap to use elite reinforcements during mission

Locarnus wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 8:52 pm I do not see a big artillery in your lineup (21cm or 17cm). Are you waiting for a movement hero to use on those?

I never used the morsers in non-modded but that might just be a personal weakness. I do have one for the 4 range and some bunker busting. I see it as a terminal upgrade, as they will get neither stars nor kills much. At least you only need 4 stars for maximum shots on the Morsers. For the 6-range 6 rof gun, which benefits from 15 strength, I think I will try to get something nice on it. I don't see the 1 movement as too necessary for the Morsers. I don't want them in the front line providing support fire '43+, since they will eat artillery shots like crazy, but I do think there is definitely a use for it. I can envision using the K5 rail artillery as well with (finally realistic) 9 range. It should be able to nail 60% strength of a key artillery piece or 30-40% of an IS-2 probably.

Locarnus wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 8:52 pm Thats a big core already, with campaign heroes still joining later on. I guess it depends on your savegame reloading philosophy for the random heroes. This many arty and strat bombers trained up would allow you to diband units that get the wrong first heroes, instead of reloading for a better on.

No loading for this playthrough. With class switching I think all heroes are fair game. Honestly I haven't thought about the "perfect core." That's a bit too much metagaming for me. I enjoy most thinking on the spot and planning by gestalt. The arty will eventually convert to 9-12 front line units, I think. I am looking forward to finally using Rondorf and company on other units!

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:18 pm

Eskuche, I found in my archives that you showed interest in doing a BE mp playthrough with me 2 years ago. Are you still interested?

goose_2 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:11 pm

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:18 pm

Eskuche, I found in my archives that you showed interest in doing a BE mp playthrough with me 2 years ago. Are you still interested?

Hah I totally forgot. Can you join the discord channel above so we can chat about it?

not right now, but hopefully this weekend, I am at work
in office

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:30 pm I don't have good air heroes, but I anticipate an 80% defensive air force in the late game, given the cost of taking random overstrength shots from very very fast enemy mobile AA on roads.

The cross class upgrade options can make several of the campaign heroes much more powerful, in addition to some of the unit rebalancing.
Eg the Bf 110 is a real heavy fighter with the Addon, making Lent and his +6 ini already extremely tough for the enemy aircraft. And if that is not enough, the Fw 190 also greatly benefits from such a massive ini buff.

goose_2 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:11 pm

Lots of additional balance meddling in this update.
Mainly for tanks and fighters.
Several more late game fighter splits into earlier and later versions for the Germans.



2025-03 Update "Locarnus Addon" Download: https://bit.ly/41A0X8i

This is only an update to the Addon and requires the 2025 base version of the Locarnus Addon to be installed already. All previous updates to the 2025 base version are included in this one.

UI & Library changes
- Movement entry back in the library (only for the basic movement types)

Battlefield Europe, Afrika Korps, GC & original PzC campaign compatibility
- BE Additional warning texts to use desert aircraft over the desert
- BE More upgrade versions for the Italian Bf 109 bonus unit

Unit Changes:
- Soviet 85mm gun buffed hard attack
- Most smaller and weaker tank and AT guns buffed hard attack
- Panzer 35(t) and 38(t) also buffed ini
- British 2pdr armed units drastically nerfed soft attack
- Many other British vehicles rebalanced (eg armored cars, tanks)
- Several Shermans slightly rebalanced in terms of armor
- Tiger P+ & P++ buffed ini by 1
- IS-2 (1944 version only) & IS-3 buffed ini by 1
- ISU-122 & 122S nerfed ini by 1, buffed soft attack by 1
- Jagdsturmtiger much more expensive
- Panzer III N 44 (Ostketten) added
- Do 335 later and split into A and B variants
- Short range point defense fighter Me 163 has 9 instead of 8 rof
- Bf 110 G rebalanced, corrected (nerfed) ground attack, G-2+ later, G-4+ earlier
- Bf 110 radar night fighters as well as Ju 88 radar night fighters get spotting 3
- Italian Bf 109 (for BE only) has additional improved versions for upgrade
- Italian G series fighters have their ammo reduced by 1
- Rebalancing of later German FW and Italian G fighters/fighter bombers
- Several new additions to late Fw 190 A, D & F, as well as Bf 109 G & K lineups
- (Some of the fighter additions reuse former late war tropical aircraft unit IDs)

Great, thanks! I'm pretty sure that not knowing the exact numbers for wide tracked has lost me too many strength points in frustration.

eskuche wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 7:51 pm Great, thanks! I'm pretty sure that not knowing the exact numbers for wide tracked has lost me too many strength points in frustration.

Unfortunately the library movement entry seems partially hardcoded, so it can only show the normal movement types.
I'll try to find a better way, but might need to extract the values to an external file or something, don't know yet.

Until then, the only way is to check the Data/movement.pzdat file manually. Eg the open source "libre office" can read it, though personally I use the 32bit notepad++ with ElasticTabstops plugin (the 64bit notepad ++ has issues with that very helpful plugin).

Locarnus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 8:04 pm Unfortunately the library movement entry seems partially hardcoded, so it can only show the normal movement types.
I'll try to find a better way, but might need to extract the values to an external file or something, don't know yet.

Until then, the only way is to check the Data/movement.pzdat file manually. Eg the open source "libre office" can read it, though personally I use the 32bit notepad++ with ElasticTabstops plugin (the 64bit notepad ++ has issues with that very helpful plugin).

Yeah, I usually read pzdata in excel. It works quite well.
Maybe one could create a table and upload as an encyclopedia image entry.

eskuche wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 5:35 pm

goose_2 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:11 pm

eskuche wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:18 pm

Eskuche, I found in my archives that you showed interest in doing a BE mp playthrough with me 2 years ago. Are you still interested?

Hah I totally forgot. Can you join the discord channel above so we can chat about it?

I joined discord, but not sure what I joined

Quick update on my progress in the past couple of weeks. I'm currently about to start the Stalingrad missions with slightly under 40k prestige in the bank, which I'm quite happy with. "No reloads" has not been an issue so far, no units have been lost although on two occcasions I got (too) close. One was sloppy (left a recon exposed), one unlucky (a task force which was in transport got spotted by a fighter which randomly flew in, after which a group of T-34's which were outside vision range crashed into my flank).
Only a handful of heroes have turned up: another spotting hero on an arty but also a range hero on a Nebelwerfer
Also good were an A2 hero on a SPAAG and another DEF hero on my Pz 3 (putting him at +4D), basically turning him into a cheap KV. Might keep him in his Pz 3 in '43 for this reason. Finally there were A1 heroes on the SE AT and a fighter.

All units except the newest FW, Su-122 and two SE units are now at least 3 stars.
I've done some minor swapping to optimize my arty's and moved the spotting hero's to recon. Planning to do more significant swaps at the end of '42.

And thanks for the HS 129 recommendation Locarnus, the B-2 model is indeed an impressive tank killer!

thejf wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 4:00 pm Quick update on my progress in the past couple of weeks. I'm currently about to start the Stalingrad missions with slightly under 40k prestige in the bank, which I'm quite happy with. "No reloads" has not been an issue so far, no units have been lost although on two occcasions I got (too) close. One was sloppy (left a recon exposed), one unlucky (a task force which was in transport got spotted by a fighter which randomly flew in, after which a group of T-34's which were outside vision range crashed into my flank).
Only a handful of heroes have turned up: another spotting hero on an arty but also a range hero on a Nebelwerfer
Also good were an A2 hero on a SPAAG and another DEF hero on my Pz 3 (putting him at +4D), basically turning him into a cheap KV. Might keep him in his Pz 3 in '43 for this reason. Finally there were A1 heroes on the SE AT and a fighter.

All units except the newest FW, Su-122 and two SE units are now at least 3 stars.
I've done some minor swapping to optimize my arty's and moved the spotting hero's to recon. Planning to do more significant swaps at the end of '42.

And thanks for the HS 129 recommendation Locarnus, the B-2 model is indeed an impressive tank killer!

I am curious how many of your units that have 2 heroes? I ended 43 with 5
5 with 2heroes

I currently have 3 units with two heroes:
- Grenadier in halftrack (1A1A)
- SE Standard Infantry (1D1I)
- Pz 3 L (4D)

Both infantry units got their second hero already in '41 at very low kill levels. The PZ 3 just got it in Buzinovka at around 650 kills.
The SE infantry is already close to 1000 kills so is the prime candidate for a third hero.

Missing their first hero at this moment are all sub-3 star units mentioned above, two arty's and all strat bombers. Stalingrad Docks should solve this last group, most of the others are close so should have heroes as well by the end of '42.

I received all 3 1st heroes for strats in Docks

go big, meaning overstrengthen, and it should help

my heroes for my strats were meh, but at this point anything helps

thejf wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 4:00 pm Quick update on my progress in the past couple of weeks. I'm currently about to start the Stalingrad missions with slightly under 40k prestige in the bank, which I'm quite happy with. "No reloads" has not been an issue so far, no units have been lost although on two occcasions I got (too) close. One was sloppy (left a recon exposed), one unlucky (a task force which was in transport got spotted by a fighter which randomly flew in, after which a group of T-34's which were outside vision range crashed into my flank).
Only a handful of heroes have turned up: another spotting hero on an arty but also a range hero on a Nebelwerfer
Also good were an A2 hero on a SPAAG and another DEF hero on my Pz 3 (putting him at +4D), basically turning him into a cheap KV. Might keep him in his Pz 3 in '43 for this reason. Finally there were A1 heroes on the SE AT and a fighter.

All units except the newest FW, Su-122 and two SE units are now at least 3 stars.
I've done some minor swapping to optimize my arty's and moved the spotting hero's to recon. Planning to do more significant swaps at the end of '42.

And thanks for the HS 129 recommendation Locarnus, the B-2 model is indeed an impressive tank killer!

One hardship of playing it "blind" is that you don't necessarily know where all the attacks are coming from, and the extra move on road/city hexes really can hit you hard unexpectedly! Keep on keeping on