Slitherine

bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:29 pm The difficulty that I am having is with your original version. Try running it a few times with #orbitalcommand and observe. On one iteration (the southern invasion, I believe), the ships don't go anywhere. In the other (western), the ships arrive at their destinations but nothing happens. I just thought of trying to place Soviet deployment hexes which I didn't think would work, and they didn't. I am stumped with this one. Maybe a fresh pair of eyes will find the problem.

And it's not the Check Unit(s) Near Hex condition in general; I just used a very similar arrangement in the previous scenario, shown below, and it is working fine. The problem seems to be in this Bengtskär Rock scenario itself and I am wondering about file corruption? Please examine your original scenario and see. I can work around it; I have an idea in mind that will accomplish much the same thing, but perhaps it's something obvious that can be corrected. Meanwhile, I will skip ahead to the next scenario.

03Bengtskar

No, I can't get it to work either. Maybe the 'Check Unit(s) near hex' simply does not work for naval units?

I did these changes and put the edited scenario in your folder.:
I changed the 'check unit hex' from the sea location to a nearby land location and increased the distance from 0 to 1.
Increased the Soviet naval aggression level from 50 to 75 and threatened tem with the Commisar to force them to move north.
Somtimes some of them still mill about before steaming north again.
Moved the Soviet naval units starting locations closer to the island.
Added Sov unit experience.

Ooops, I bungled the 03Bengtskar scenario saving it in 8.4.0
I'll replace it with a proper 8.3.0 version...

Edit: Done.

Please check back in a few minutes. I ran a test that I would like you to look at at your convenience.

bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:48 pm Please check back in a few minutes. I ran a test that I would like you to look at at your convenience.

Here is a simple test. Please download and run Test Check Unit(s) Near Hex Condition - Naval. A ship is ordered to move north. When it gets to the hex, the condition triggers but does not spawn a unit, nor does it self-destruct. It does obey the third trigger, which is to move around the island.


I am going to redesign it using a land unit.

Okay, here is the land unit test. Same results.

Test Check Unit(s) Near Hex Condition - Land

The same Check Unit(s) Near Hex condition fails to fire the spawn effect; fails to fire the self-destruct effect; but motivates the unit to move north.


The good news in this is that in all the scenarios in which we have used the Check Unit(s) Near Hex condition to change AI team tasks (such as the example that I showed you from the previous scenario), the condition is working. The bad news is, either this is a new bug or a never-discovered bug concerning that condition. Apparently it cannot be used to introduce or remove units into the scenario.

I will leave it up to you if you want to pursue this with the developers. Maybe run these tests in 8.4.0 to see if the behavior changes at all, first.

If you change <Any Event> => <Turn Start> it works

Concerning Bengtskär Rock, it is too good a scenario to lose. I will work around this issue and replicate what needs to happen, now that I know what the issue is.

terminator wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:10 pm If you change <Any Event> => <Turn Start> it works

How does Any Event not incorporate Turn Start? I will try it, but I am not optimistic.

bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:14 pm

terminator wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:10 pm If you change <Any Event> => <Turn Start> it works

How does Any Event not incorporate Turn Start? I will try it, but I am not optimistic.

Oh for crying out loud. It does work. What the hell does this mean, now?

terminator, when is the last time someone called you a genius? Whenever it was, it was too long ago. It should be repeated at least daily!

Sure enough, in Erik's original scenario, I changed the trigger on just Group Beljavev to Turn Start, and voilà:


Possible explanation: No unit placements, spawns, deployments, or removals, can be done except on Turn Start whereas the game will obey a command to change an AI team task at any time, for Any Event. In this instance, the AI team order "uses up" the trigger and the spawn/remove effects are ignored at that time, and for good.

I will make this scenario work now. Many thanks, termainator and Erik.

If you just change the nationality of the boat USSR->Finland and move your boat to the target hex, the trigger works !

terminator wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:34 pm If you just change the nationality of the boat USSR->Finland and move your boat to the target hex, the trigger works !

TMI, now. I'm closing my eyes and ears. La-la-la-la! Is someone talking? I can't hear him.

bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:38 pm

terminator wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:34 pm If you just change the nationality of the boat USSR->Finland and move your boat to the target hex, the trigger works !

TMI, now. I'm closing my eyes and ears. La-la-la-la! Is someone talking? I can't hear him.

Actually (taking fingers out of ears), that does make sense. In between the Finnish human move and the Soviet AI move is a Turn Start. Now, when the trigger fires, it has a fresh Turn Start to do the unit manipulations whereas before, the condition was being met in the same turn for the same faction and my theory is that unit placements on or off the map cannot be done during a turn. Yet, the trigger does get "used up" to change the AI team task which apparently is permissible at that time. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! (I am also including it in my designing notes for future reference. This one was a toughie.)

Erik2 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm 03Bengtskar

No, I can't get it to work either. Maybe the 'Check Unit(s) near hex' simply does not work for naval units?

I did these changes and put the edited scenario in your folder.:
I changed the 'check unit hex' from the sea location to a nearby land location and increased the distance from 0 to 1.
Increased the Soviet naval aggression level from 50 to 75 and threatened tem with the Commisar to force them to move north.
Somtimes some of them still mill about before steaming north again.
Moved the Soviet naval units starting locations closer to the island.
Added Sov unit experience.

Erik, thanks for trying. I had done most of what you changed already, including all sorts of iterations about where to place the target hexes using different definitions of the ships for the Check Unit(s) Near Hex condition. I think we have the answer as outlined above, thanks to the brain stimulus provided by terminator.

As far as the ships themselves, I like the original positions which give the Finnish motor boats a crack at sinking at least one of them; now they are too close to the island for that.

Regarding the sluggishness of one set of ship maneuvers, the "invasion-1" and "invasion-2" triggers have different sets of commands. One uses "Naval Capture Hex" which works better, I think. The other uses "Naval Defend Hex" which may account for the sluggishness.

I will continue work on the original scenario, then. The big problem with it has been resolved, thank goodness.

EDIT: Actually, for strict obedience to orders, "Move to Hex" set for "Ignore Enemy" works best, even for naval units. "Naval Capture Hex," even set to Aggression = 0, does not prevent the ship from taking pot shots and straying a bit.

Thank you, Mr.T.

Ah, 'tis a thing of beauty now. From either direction, ships positioned (and repositioned by trigger) to all arrive and deploy on Turn 4 (with no opposition), as a well-timed invasion should be. No laggards. This to give the player three turns to locate and interdict one or more of the ships so as to cut down the odds in the land battle a bit. Now to make sure that doesn't go to far in the other direction, regarding the number and placement of friendly motorboats and coastal guns.

Exercising my artistic license:

1) The shape of Bengtskär Rock and surrounding islands is slightly different than in the template; I altered our map accordingly:


2) Hanko Naval Base is to the northeast, not the northwest. I moved its representation to the other corner.

3) Örö is another island off the coast. While a coastal defence team could have been moved from there to Bengtskär Rock, I doubt that they would have renamed the battery at Bengtskär Rock after Örö.


4) The "Sauna " is closed for the duration. You can always reopen it in the official version, if you are fond of it.

Two Finnish MTB Syosky motorboats (nav sml att = 1) are no match for two Soviet MO-2 Guard Ships (nav sml att = 4). To even things up a bit, a Finnish gunboat. For once, I get to click on the map to place a gunboat, and mean it!

As a matter of fact, Wikipedia says "Finnish gunboats Uusimaa and Hämeenmaa engaged the Soviets . . . The battle resulted in a Finnish victory, due to the intervention of the gunboats." Let me see what one does to the balance. I don't want the battle to be resolved entirely at sea, but historically speaking, there has to be something of a sea battle in this one.


EDIT: And now the two Soviet MO-2 Guard Ships are no match for the Finnish gunboat! (Two invasion teams sunk, two landed.) Thus the introduction of a Soviet Soviet DD Gnevny. Thus how the battle escalates!

EDIT 2: Well, that's not bad. I had to fight smart (picking out the Group ships from the melee) to stop two invasion groups. The Hämeenmaa to start with, the Uusimaa coming with two more motorboats at 0140 to balance another two Soviet MO-2 Guard Ships (and another DD Gnevny?) at 0120, surviving Group ships going on Seek & Destroy after delivering troops . . . this one is shaping up lively!

Hi,

On the issue with Triggers, are you wanting those triggers to all essentially fire at the same time? So the first one passes it's tests, fires, then fires the other ones?