Slitherine

Start of Vyazma, 27.7k Prestige

All units in reserve, not going to list heros, too much work. Most are 3+ stars

3x Grenadiers
4x Airborne Infantry
2x Alpine Infantry
1x Pioneer
1x Bridging Infantry (this guy has been invaluable in russia so far)
9x PZ IV D's
1x Captured T34
1x Captured KV-1B
4x SE Panzer IV F
2x Recon
2x Panzerjager
7x 15cm Arty
1x Stug
3x 8.8 AT/AA
3x BF109F
1x BF110F
3x JU 88A

I may settle for an MV at Vyazma, but I'm gonna play it tonight. The MV is because:

1. I hate this scenario
2. Panzers don't work in the mud
3. Air units don't work in the rain
4. I find streets of moscow to be a bit ahistorical
5. Save prestige

That said if I have a shot at DV I will go for it if I think it is possible once the encirclement is complete

Vyazma can be tough. My recent approach has been to aim for MV to keep stress levels down, but if you get a run of good weather, especially early on, a DV isn't that difficult (*).



*
This means "not that difficult compared with getting a DV in constant rain and mud".

To win Vyazma, you must keep moving on either the north or south side of the major blockage in the middle. I typically bypass on the North after defeating the first counterattack, while I clean-up
the cities in the south. The central position is more vulnerable from the southern flank.
On my last playthrough a few days ago, got the DV with 3 turns to spare, having captured every objective.
I am not a fan of airpower in this one due to the poor weather. 4 ftrs and Rudel is what I typically employ. I find that ftrs work great to reduce entrenchment when they have completed their primary job of defeating the enemy air.

captainjack wrote:Vyazma can be tough. My recent approach has been to aim for MV to keep stress levels down, but if you get a run of good weather, especially early on, a DV isn't that difficult (*).



*
This means "not that difficult compared with getting a DV in constant rain and mud".

My first playthrough I got the DV, but here I am going for the MV. I'm on turn 15ish and finally assaulting the center victory hexes. I had mud nearly every turn. It's highly dependent if you have good weather, and if you have half-tracks. This play through I don't have half-tracks due to saving prestige, so it was clear a DV wasn't in the cards.

I also had mobile artillery the last play through, now I am all towed.

captainjack wrote:Vyazma can be tough. My recent approach has been to aim for MV to keep stress levels down, but if you get a run of good weather, especially early on, a DV isn't that difficult (*).



*
This means "not that difficult compared with getting a DV in constant rain and mud".

In this scenario you may want to postpone upgrading your tanks to Pz IIIJ's. They have a better attack & AD value than the Pz IIIH, but, they also carry less fuel. Also bring any Russian tanks you may have captured - they'll have better mobility & fuel than anything German. KV1's are a great choice here. Good luck!

Made it to Demyansk Pocket after a marginal victory. 29.4k Prestige after elite replacements, same core.

I have the option now though to update my AT to Marders, never used them before, worth it? I'm banking on a "no" but was curious to the forums opinions. Demyansk is pretty easy, so I am gonna deploy straight defensive forces.

DV in Demyansk, starting '42 with 30.6k Prestige, and got +1 SE PZ IV/F2 at the start.

NotOneStepBack wrote:Start of Vyazma, 27.7k Prestige

All units in reserve, not going to list heros, too much work. Most are 3+ stars
...

Thanks for the tread, NOSB, really enjoyed reading it. Feel like 20 years younger, when i first saw panzer general
MHO about your core:
Infantry.
Too much units, way too much. Infantry is a basic assault unit for close combat, it cannot withstand serious punishment from arty or bombers, or even tanks for that matter. Later in game infantry will perform poorly against enemy inf, especially against Allies, because they are rich in inf with high initiative values.
I found that 6 or 7 infantry units is enough, and in most scenarios i do not field more than five. Somewhere near Kharkov two excellent gebirgsjägers with nice extra initiative will join your core. You won't be needing any extra units afterwards.
Before '43 inf is available, grenadiers and gebirgsjägers looks like best choice. Bridge infantry is useful in two to three scenarios throughout the game from 39 to 45. Apart from these very few scenarios, it just sits in reserve, and one unit is sufficient.
Panzas.
Seems nice, but in this case more is better. And me thinks you must have been given Somua S35. Personally, i kept it (and used it) until Pz4 with long 75 mm is available.
Recons.
Nice, really nice units, but pretty much useless. Medium tank can do the scouting, especially those blessed with spotting heroes, while still counting as normal front-line armored unit.
Antitank guns. Just plainly useless throughout the game. Very limited choice before 1942 i guess, without any serious advantage to speak of. Later, AT SPGs are still inferior to contemporary tanks in antitank role, and outright bad in all other tasks. Pure trash. IMHO, of course.
Arty. SFh 15s are nice, and i personally stick to them because of the transport issue - unlike some guys, posted in this topic, i strongly recommend using advanced halftracks. All my units are equipped with them, but for arty it's just a must have before u switch to hummels. Towed arty's poor mobility limits its usefulness as it is, and two extra movement points come in real handy. You won't be repairing arty very often, so using more expensive transport doesn't make any difference from economic perspective. I'd equipped all my arty with Su-122 if i had that option. BTW, by the end of 1943 GC at least three Su-122s may be captured.
AA guns. Just like the scouts - nice, but useless. However, if you do see them as useful part of core or just enjoy having famed 88 in AA/AT role, i still suggest not putting much effort in them. In 1944 Soviet GC, if you are good, you'll be able to raid behind enemy lines and make revenge against US heavy bomber fleet, using Russian airfields. In process you will acquire all AA units u have ever dreamed of, and even some that you haven't
Fighters. The more the better is true again. Best to have 5 to 7, and hope at least two of them to get initiative boost.
Tac Bombers. 2 is enough, Ju-87 as a tank buster against B1, Matilda IIs and KVs, BF110 later on, when panzers are able to stand for themselves. Cheap upgrade to Me-410 as a bonus.
Level bombers. Personally, i found that one overstreighted Do-17 is more than enough to tame those pesky capital ships, deprive KV-5 of its ammunition or heavily suppress and disentrench pretty much anything. Once Do-17 is available, i've never used Ju-88, or any other level bomber, Amerika bomber aside.

That said, i do hope you continue with your core and keep us posted how it turned out. Maybe it's a new exciting way to play it and reason to see poznan and kempinovka forest once again.
P.S. i don't see if the topic was discussed - have you noticed that elite replacements cost twice as much when replenishing units in the field compared to reinforcements between the battles?

NotOneStepBack wrote:Demyansk is pretty easy, so I am gonna deploy straight defensive forces.

Capturing north-west corner can give you something useful, but do not overstretch yourself, or you regret it.
And clearing western part is quite entertaining.

Lagg3 wrote:

NotOneStepBack wrote:Start of Vyazma, 27.7k Prestige

All units in reserve, not going to list heros, too much work. Most are 3+ stars
...

P.S. i don't see if the topic was discussed - have you noticed that elite replacements cost twice as much when replenishing units in the field compared to reinforcements between the battles?

My Elite Replacements in the field cost 4 times as much.
Is that because I am playing at Field Marshall level?

Lagg3 wrote:

NotOneStepBack wrote:Start of Vyazma, 27.7k Prestige

All units in reserve, not going to list heros, too much work. Most are 3+ stars
...

Thanks for the tread, NOSB, really enjoyed reading it. Feel like 20 years younger, when i first saw panzer general
MHO about your core:
Infantry.
Too much units, way too much. Infantry is a basic assault unit for close combat, it cannot withstand serious punishment from arty or bombers, or even tanks for that matter. Later in game infantry will perform poorly against enemy inf, especially against Allies, because they are rich in inf with high initiative values.
I found that 6 or 7 infantry units is enough, and in most scenarios i do not field more than five. Somewhere near Kharkov two excellent gebirgsjägers with nice extra initiative will join your core. You won't be needing any extra units afterwards.
Before '43 inf is available, grenadiers and gebirgsjägers looks like best choice. Bridge infantry is useful in two to three scenarios throughout the game from 39 to 45. Apart from these very few scenarios, it just sits in reserve, and one unit is sufficient.
Panzas.
Seems nice, but in this case more is better. And me thinks you must have been given Somua S35. Personally, i kept it (and used it) until Pz4 with long 75 mm is available.
Recons.
Nice, really nice units, but pretty much useless. Medium tank can do the scouting, especially those blessed with spotting heroes, while still counting as normal front-line armored unit.
Antitank guns. Just plainly useless throughout the game. Very limited choice before 1942 i guess, without any serious advantage to speak of. Later, AT SPGs are still inferior to contemporary tanks in antitank role, and outright bad in all other tasks. Pure trash. IMHO, of course.
Arty. SFh 15s are nice, and i personally stick to them because of the transport issue - unlike some guys, posted in this topic, i strongly recommend using advanced halftracks. All my units are equipped with them, but for arty it's just a must have before u switch to hummels. Towed arty's poor mobility limits its usefulness as it is, and two extra movement points come in real handy. You won't be repairing arty very often, so using more expensive transport doesn't make any difference from economic perspective. I'd equipped all my arty with Su-122 if i had that option. BTW, by the end of 1943 GC at least three Su-122s may be captured.
AA guns. Just like the scouts - nice, but useless. However, if you do see them as useful part of core or just enjoy having famed 88 in AA/AT role, i still suggest not putting much effort in them. In 1944 Soviet GC, if you are good, you'll be able to raid behind enemy lines and make revenge against US heavy bomber fleet, using Russian airfields. In process you will acquire all AA units u have ever dreamed of, and even some that you haven't
Fighters. The more the better is true again. Best to have 5 to 7, and hope at least two of them to get initiative boost.
Tac Bombers. 2 is enough, Ju-87 as a tank buster against B1, Matilda IIs and KVs, BF110 later on, when panzers are able to stand for themselves. Cheap upgrade to Me-410 as a bonus.
Level bombers. Personally, i found that one overstreighted Do-17 is more than enough to tame those pesky capital ships, deprive KV-5 of its ammunition or heavily suppress and disentrench pretty much anything. Once Do-17 is available, i've never used Ju-88, or any other level bomber, Amerika bomber aside.

That said, i do hope you continue with your core and keep us posted how it turned out. Maybe it's a new exciting way to play it and reason to see poznan and kempinovka forest once again.
P.S. i don't see if the topic was discussed - have you noticed that elite replacements cost twice as much when replenishing units in the field compared to reinforcements between the battles?

I'm also an original PG vet.

I disagree with a lot of this.

What I care about is being cost efficient. Infantry are extremely cheap, and are useful in several roles, but I agree that their uses decline as the campaign goes on. However in certain maps such as Stalingrad, or any other city-based maps they are invaluable. Infantry are also specialized for certain aspects of the game such as bunker-busting, taking victory hexes off the beaten path, and taking out entrenched troops or artillery/at that would otherwise destroy your panzers. I have an airborne infantry with +3 attack +3 movement and +6 initiative, it's far from useless, in fact, it takes out most minor towns by itself with no losses.

The recon are a bit useless, but I can always sell them.

The 88's aren't useless. How many times do you get ambushed by superior Russian tanks in the game? Just in '41 I can rattle off several scenarios where this happens, and it becomes more and more frequent. Combine them with Level bombers and you can set up tank traps that wipe out T34's with minimal losses. The key to AT units is in your playstyle. If they aren't fighting tanks then they switch to AA. For their prestige cost they are a bargain.

Half-tracks on arty aren't worth it. So you are going to increase your avg cost per unit so they have slightly more mobility on a unit that doesn't need to be mobile to begin with? I haven't had an issue with towed artillery at all (with trucks), they are extremely efficient and have a high ROF. These are the counter-attack killers.

Dive bombers imo, are not worth the cost.

I didn't use elite replacement until 1940 or so, but the exp loss from green replacements is too much vs. the cost. And if you can get away with keeping your units at less than 100% strength until the deployment phase of the next mission, then do it.

goose_2 wrote: My Elite Replacements in the field cost 4 times as much.
Is that because I am playing at Field Marshall level?

Definitely. I play at colonel difficulty with AI 2 and reduced random fluctuations.

NotOneStepBack wrote: I disagree with a lot of this.

From my point of view, being "economically effective" means using scarce resources with maximum efficiency. Look at your own profile - it's still 1942 and you are already drowning in prestige - you've got enough of it to create a complete copy of your current core. And then another one, perhaps. Prestige is anything but scarce. What we do need to consider scarce is number of deployment slots. There are some scenarios where there is plenty of slots and you do not need extra, but mostly you need to choose what to left behind, even if you definitely could use extra units.
Thus, "economically efficient" solution is to have greatest bang for your slot. And there we find most expensive (in terms of prestige) units to be most efficient in terms of slots, as panthers and king tigers have way better stats than Pz4s.
I believe you are right when you are saying that unit's utility depends on play style. Where you use level bombers and AA/AT to deal with tanks, i use Stukas (actually, i do it since PG). Sometimes combination of arty, tank, hard terrain and an infantry can do the trick. German tanks stats are sufficient to deal with most contemporary armor, for really strong units like Matilda II and B1 in 1940 and KVs in 1941 - well, blitzkrieg is a combined arms operation, so just call in the tactical air cavalry.
Again, please have it your way. Your approach is much closer to actual history than my hordes of panthers, SPGs and a lonely panzer-grenadier unit, accompanying each battle group. It will be interesting to hear from you about your experience with Russian onslaught from Kursk and onward.

Lagg3 wrote:Thus, "economically efficient" solution is to have greatest bang for your slot. And there we find most expensive (in terms of prestige) units to be most efficient in terms of slots, as panthers and king tigers have way better stats than Pz4s.

Not with the new rules, and the soft cap in effect. With the soft cap in effect, the most efficient solution is one in which the average value of the deployed units (including the value of overstrengthening) = 400, or as close to 400 as possible. That means that the deployment of a King Tiger (990 if not overstrength) must be offset by a "savings" of 590 points elsewhere. (SE units do not count toward the soft cap, so SE King Tigers do not need to be offset.)

Managed a DV at Vitebsk, it actually is pretty easy if you deploy in the north completely, then slowly take back the entire map, even got a free captured T /34.

30k Prestige at start of Kharkov 42. I upgraded my level bombers to HE 177's and all fighters to BF 109/110 G's. I'm waiting to upgrade all my panzers to PZ IV G's when they come out from the D's. That will be about 1500ish prestige. Anyone know when the G variant is available?

Edit: They will be available after this scenario. Going to be needed too, these Russian tanks are getting tougher.

With 30k prestige at Kharkov you are doing well... I am at Mogilev June 1944, with still 35k prestige after having upgraded 6 Panzer units to the King Tiger, level FM, with reduced prestige level.
The Pz.IVG becomes available around June/July 1942, dont know which scenerio exactly though.

Everyone has its own style and preferences - what is mandatory for one is useless for the other! Which makes this game great and indeed the true successor to PG.
Yes, Im a PG veteran as well! I am 52 years old and have played WW2 games since 1987/88.

My favorite unit is a Panther G, with +3 attack, +2 defense AND +3 spot hero...

At this stage I am beginning to get too many core units with 4+ stars - problem of luxury - too many too deploy.
2 PantherG
3 Tiger
6 Tiger II
4 Elefant

I have 7 Fw.190's, 2 Fw.190G, 1 Stuka G and 1 He.177.

I stick to the WW2 principle of air cover at all times - so most of the time I deploy 6 or 7. That does mean once the waves of Russian fighters/bombers have been destroyed, my fighters are less usefull.
But as time progresses, one never knows if another wave comes in or not (that is, playing a scenerio with no beforehand knowledge - I now play 1944 for the first time).
On many occasions I was able to use a fighter to kill that AI unit damaged to 1 point.

I have lost only two core units thus far, twice a recon. I admit, on three occasions I was able to hold on to a core units after it was damaged to 2 or 3 points remaining.
Receiving / conquering enemy units at this stage does not help therefore, because I am not able to deploy them anyway - I have to sell each of them.

ptje63 wrote:I have lost only two core units thus far, twice a recon. I admit, on three occasions I was able to hold on to a core units after it was damaged to 2 or 3 points remaining.
Receiving / conquering enemy units at this stage does not help therefore, because I am not able to deploy them anyway - I have to sell each of them.

As a thought & possible future tactic, you might want to hold onto a few of those captured units. When you wind up playing a defensive scenario down the road, during your initial deployment you can park them some place as roadblocks or perhaps just on your side of a bridge. Hopefully they'll take off a few points off an overstrength Russian tank or two before they die. Once they are dead, you'll be able to deploy better units in their place from your corps.

TSPC37730 wrote:

ptje63 wrote:I have lost only two core units thus far, twice a recon. I admit, on three occasions I was able to hold on to a core units after it was damaged to 2 or 3 points remaining.
Receiving / conquering enemy units at this stage does not help therefore, because I am not able to deploy them anyway - I have to sell each of them.

As a thought & possible future tactic, you might want to hold onto a few of those captured units. When you wind up playing a defensive scenario down the road, during your initial deployment you can park them some place as roadblocks or perhaps just on your side of a bridge. Hopefully they'll take off a few points off an overstrength Russian tank or two before they die. Once they are dead, you'll be able to deploy better units in their place from your corps.

Hadn't thought of that one - thanks!

NOSB: maybe I missed it, do you have your infantry in h tracks?

I started the GC39 over and over and over to shake the old v1.14 rules out of my head lol!

I remember playing with the v1.21 rules up to some where in 1942 but the v1.25 rules kept kicking my butt starting out in the 39'...whewwwwwww.

got the cob webs shook in my brains and finally can get something done with the exp cap rules playing FM. Happy camper now lol!

Luftwaffe: trying to get stars on (4) BF109E's and I cannot kill those 2 frickin Polish fighters....they escape with 2 and 1 points after my green Gorings' trainers hit them, sigh! (2 new ones for the battle.) also rotating (2) He 111H2's. Edit: battle Piatek

I'm giving my units elite replacements at each deploy turn. I'm still fuzzy on the prestige cap. have to look up a detailed explain on that one.

really enjoying the conversations on this thread people!