Slitherine

Nice units, hungry for more

Then another airplane for Poland. It seems I finally found the right colour. Although there is only one surviving Polish plane from before WWII, it seems the modelling buffs did their research and scraped a little of original paint, compared it with B&W photos and it seems that this is the "dark earth khaki" colour used as camo for Polish planes prior to and during WWII. I'll be using it for all future airplanes.

As to the icon, it's the PZL.55, or a fighter version of PZL.26 sports plane. It was the last design to be created before the war, in fact it was completed only in August 1939. It resembled Italian fighters of the era and would most likely behave similarly. Historically none were built, the first prototype was to be created in early 1940 and the plane was to enter service some time in 1942. But since we already have the Hawk-looking PZL.50 Jastrząb, why not this one

Speaking of PZL 50 Jastrząb, here's a new version of it. The icon can serve as either PZL.50 or PZL.53, both were visually identical. Actually, take any radial engine fighter from the epoch and it will look similar, be it Curtiss P-36 Hawk, Bloch MB.150, Fiat G.50 or Mitsubishi A6M Zero.

Thx , for this very nice units.

Did I say PZL.53 was identical to PZL.50? Well, it seems not entirely. The prototypes and early production PZL.50 had forward-facing cockpit, but an all-round bubble-like canopy was envisioned for future development versions. Also, the first series aircraft were not manoeuvrable enough (especially comparing to the PZL p.11c, which was unparalleled in aerobatics). Which means that the PZL.53 Jastrząb II would have a different cockpit and most likely a different tail. Fiddle with it a little and here's what you get.

The icon is based on Bf1942 model of Japanese Zero fighter, but I guess it's close enough to what the PZL.53 would look like. BTW, the icon - as the squadron insignia tell, this plane belongs to 151st Fighter Escadrille.

Oh, and another plane, this time more common. The PZL p.11c fighter. I know we already have an excellent icon by Bebro around here, there's a nice set by Nikivdd, Dragos even made a Romanian version, not to mention the fact that we even have a decent vanilla icon. Yet, most of them are non-historical. Either the colour is off, or they are painted in non-Polish camos, or the checkerboards are in the wrong places...

Anyway, here's a more historically-accurate PZL p.11c. Not 100% accurate as the serial number 8.63 would indicate the only surviving PZL p.11c flown by the 121 escadrille while the logo indicates the S/L of the 142 Fighter Escadrille, but still, it's much closer to what the fighter really look like.
BTW, I wonder how to modify the stats of this babe. On one hand by 1939 the p.11 design was outdated. Even German bombers were faster. It was no match for German Messerschmitts: it was outgunned, slower and definitely not numerous enough. It's all true. But on the other hand the scorecards of Polish pilots of 1939 tell a slightly different story. Despite being outnumbered several times, despite flying this outdated plane, against all odds Polish p.11's downed more planes than they lost. The PZL, while definitely a design of the past, proved extremely durable (it is an often-cited fact that the only limit to its' ability to turn was the brain of the pilot, as the machine itself was able to withstand g forces unachievable to German fighters), reliable and an excellent dogfighter.

To put that in a perspective, the Polish fighters (including old PZL p.7a) downed 10 Bf 109 and 13 Bf 110 (23 in total), while German fighters downed 32 Polish fighters (incl. six p.7a and 4 p.7a destroyed on the ground). Come to think of it, when you consider the Luftwaffe an uber-force armed with the best fighters of the epoch, the 23 to 32 ratio is not really impressive, is it. Especially when you consider the 2,5:1 air superiority. Any idea how to translate all that into unit stats of Panzer Corps?

Halibutt wrote: BTW, I wonder how to modify the stats of this babe. On one hand by 1939 the p.11 design was outdated. Even German bombers were faster. It was no match for German Messerschmitts: it was outgunned, slower and definitely not numerous enough. It's all true. But on the other hand the scorecards of Polish pilots of 1939 tell a slightly different story. Despite being outnumbered several times, despite flying this outdated plane, against all odds Polish p.11's downed more planes than they lost. The PZL, while definitely a design of the past, proved extremely durable (it is an often-cited fact that the only limit to its' ability to turn was the brain of the pilot, as the machine itself was able to withstand g forces unachievable to German fighters), reliable and an excellent dogfighter.

To put that in a perspective, the Polish fighters (including old PZL p.7a) downed 10 Bf 109 and 13 Bf 110 (23 in total), while German fighters downed 32 Polish fighters (incl. six p.7a and 4 p.7a destroyed on the ground). Come to think of it, when you consider the Luftwaffe an uber-force armed with the best fighters of the epoch, the 23 to 32 ratio is not really impressive, is it. Especially when you consider the 2,5:1 air superiority. Any idea how to translate all that into unit stats of Panzer Corps?

Something
Bf-109 - shot down by:
Polish fighters - 5
Polish bombers - 4

Of about 2000 aircraft used against Poland Luftwaffe lost 258 to all causes, and of additional 263 damaged only 40% made it back to the front-line units after repairs. An estimated 230 aircraft were destroyed in action, primarily by Polish fighters and anti-aircraft artillery. About 400 aircrew were killed or missing, and an additional 120 wounded. Of 217 German tanks destroyed and 457 seriously damaged in the campaign, a significant proportion can be attributed to the Bomber Brigade and P.23s of the Army reconnaissance squadrons. Lotnictwo Wojskowe lost 333 aircraft, 260 as the result of enemy action. Of these, around 100 were destroyed in combat, and a further 120 as the result of sustained damage. Only 25 combat aircraft (as opposed to many training and civilian airplanes) were destroyed on the ground. Aircrew killed numbered 61, 110 were missing and 63 wounded. When comparing the combat potential of both sides, this is by no means a bad result for the Polish Air Force. An interesting observation is that, throughout the campaign, more than 30 Polish aircraft were shot down by Polish anti-aircraft fire. This sad testimony to the efficiency of Polish AA gunmen (who also took a heavy toll - considering the minute number of AA guns available - of the Luftwaffe) is easy to explain. Constantly harassed by the Luftwaffe, mauled by the horrifying Stuka attacks, Polish ground troops fired at anything that flew. Polish aircraft were indeed a rare sight those days, thus, when they did appear, they were almost automatically assumed to be German. Probably the worst incident happened on September 8th. When P.11s of were chasing a He 111 formation near Pulawy, Polish AA opened fire, and shot down four aircraft, killing two pilots - one of them the C/O of - and wounding one. More frequent, though, were cases of downing Polish liaison and reconnaissance aircraft, which, because of German mastery of the air, usually kept close to the ground and were often hit by own machine gun or even small arms fire. Another interesting statistic is the number of defensive kills by Polish bomber and reconnaissance crews - 14 - as compared to the number of these aircraft shot down by German fighters, which is 31. As Polish bombers had relatively weak defensive armament (three 7.92mm guns) and no armor, even assuming top-quality gunnery on part of the Polish crews, there is no escape from the conclusion that many German fighter pilots were only learning their trade (for comparison: the Pursuit Brigade claimed 38 victories over German bombers and lost only 4 fighters to their defensive fire).

Polish fighters claimed shooting down following German planes:
10 Bf-109
13 Bf-110
10 Ju-86
17 Ju-87
30 Do-17
44 He-111
15 Hs-126
1 He-45
7 planes of unrecognized types
Total should be 247.

Halibutt wrote:Let me know what you need and I'll see what I can do.

I only read this too late ... and you forgot to include a link when you wrote "here's a complete list"...

Easily googled, though, but I can't remember what icons I longed for by going through the names. I have kept a list somewhere, but I think it's on my old PC (where my FHSW installation also lives). Since I stashed that one at my parent's place, I couldn't easily check.

Too late now anyway, and I guess it's not that important after all.
I'll just be glad for every cool icon you make from whatever source suits your fancy.

In that respect, thanks for all the new cool polish stuff.
_____
rezaf

rezaf wrote:

Halibutt wrote:Let me know what you need and I'll see what I can do.

I only read this too late ... and you forgot to include a link when you wrote "here's a complete list"...

Easily googled, though, but I can't remember what icons I longed for by going through the names. I have kept a list somewhere, but I think it's on my old PC (where my FHSW installation also lives). Since I stashed that one at my parent's place, I couldn't easily check.

Too late now anyway, and I guess it's not that important after all.
I'll just be glad for every cool icon you make from whatever source suits your fancy.

In that respect, thanks for all the new cool polish stuff.
_____
rezaf

Not too late I have "0 days left", but the 3ds max still works. Apparently the trial ends at midnight (CET?). Plus I exported some models to .obj so that I could open them with Blender or SketchUp or Cinema 4D, so it's possible I might have the model available.

And the link is here: http://fhsw.wikia.com/wiki/Vehicles

Halibutt wrote:
BTW, I wonder how to modify the stats of this babe. On one hand by 1939 the p.11 design was outdated. Even German bombers were faster. It was no match for German Messerschmitts: it was outgunned, slower and definitely not numerous enough. It's all true. But on the other hand the scorecards of Polish pilots of 1939 tell a slightly different story. Despite being outnumbered several times, despite flying this outdated plane, against all odds Polish p.11's downed more planes than they lost.

Absolutely true. It also let me down a bit when I saw the vanilla stats of the P.11 fighter. I think it has not much to do with its actual performance, the devs just wanted to make it bad enough so that players do not have to face a real opposition in the first "tutorial" like missions. When I was a kid I read the book of Tadeusz Rolski (CO of Polish 141. Squadron and then CO of RAF Squadron No. 306) in which he expained how they used the superior maneuverability of the P.11 fighters and that how they could reach and attack the faster German bombers by diving on them from a higher altitude.

So, taking into account their historical performance, in the Battlefield: Europe mod, I increased the main stats of the P.11 from the vanilla Initiative: 1, Air Attack: 8 Air Defense:11 to Ini: 5, AA: 8 AD: 14 which is still lower than the corresponding stats of the Bf 109 E (Ini: 7 AA: 14 AD: 18), but the difference is not so big. Also, these increased stats make it possible to attack unescorted bombers with success.

Also, if I am right nearly half of the Bf 109s in 1939 were the older C and D variants which had a significantly lower performance and armament than the more famous E version, thus also added a the Bf 109 D to the equipment list with lower stats (Ini: 6 AA: 11 AD: 17). Obviously the P.11 performs better against this type.

Another way to increase the effectiveness of the Polish fighers is to increase their starting experience. In my mod Polish fighers start with 1 star (100 exp points), while the Germans start with no experience, and I even added a historical hero, Stanislaw Skalski, to one of the Polish fighter units with fairly decent bonuses (Attack: +2, Defense: +2, Ini: +1).

All these changes made the Polish airforce reasonably better, and hopefully more accurate historically, than in the vanilla campaigns.



Oh, and congratulations for those latest Polish air unit icons the look superb and really match the bebro units style and quality.

McGuba wrote:Absolutely true. It also let me down a bit when I saw the vanilla stats of the P.11 fighter. I think it has not much to do with its actual performance, the devs just wanted to make it bad enough so that players do not have to face a real opposition in the first "tutorial" like missions. When I was a kid I read the book of Tadeusz Rolski (CO of Polish 141. Squadron and then CO of RAF Squadron No. 306) in which he expained how they used the superior maneuverability of the P.11 fighters and that how they could reach and attack the faster German bombers by diving on them from a higher altitude.

That's the problem with Poland in most strategy games out there. Usually it's made weaker than it should "because the Germans won" and all attempts at correcting that are met with the usual "yeah, let's make Poland unbeatable" tongue-in-cheek comments. Regardless of whether this or that German unit was really stronger than its Polish counterpart (infantry battalions come to mind).

As to PZL p.11c, it seems the Polish air industry, despite all its flaws (like waiting endlessly for the Foka engine for instance instead of buying a decent foreign engine), managed to produce some pretty marvellous designs - and many of their traits were there by accident. For instance the durability of the PZL p.11 was a direct effect of bad experience with the structurally weak SPAD 61 fighter. And they made their new fighter stronger - to the point that it could dive at huge speeds without the wings coming off ("ground is the limit!" seems like a decent motto ) and it could outmanoeuvre any enemy fighter. Same for the PZL.37 bomber. The engineers behind it wanted as many bombs as possible to be mounted within the wing roots. To achieve that, the wing roots were extended and were the widest at 40% of their length. Coincidently this also meant that the IAW-743 wing used in PZL.37 was the first wing with laminar airflow in Poland and one of the first in the world. By accident

So, taking into account their historical performance, in the Battlefield: Europe mod, I increased the main stats of the P.11 from the vanilla Initiative: 1, Air Attack: 8 Air Defense:11 to Ini: 5, AA: 8 AD: 14 which is still lower than the corresponding stats of the Bf 109 E (Ini: 7 AA: 14 AD: 18), but the difference is not so big. Also, these increased stats make it possible to attack unescorted bombers with success.

Also, if I am right nearly half of the Bf 109s in 1939 were the older C and D variants which had a significantly lower performance and armament than the more famous E version, thus also added a the Bf 109 D to the equipment list with lower stats (Ini: 6 AA: 11 AD: 17). Obviously the P.11 performs better against this type.

Yeah, I thought about mimicking the stats from your mod Except the ranges, the maps I'm working on are 1 hex = 1 km scale.

Oh, and congratulations for those latest Polish air unit icons the look superb and really match the bebro units style and quality.

As I believe I mentioned before, this is because the scene (lighting, shadows and whatnot) are actually by Bebro, he was kind enough to provide me with a template. Glad you like them

Halibutt wrote:It was no match for German Messerschmitts: it was outgunned, slower and definitely not numerous enough. It's all true.

Even if you make a small allowance for a propaganda angle, the Gladiators in Malta also did extraordinarily well against supposedly superior and more numerous planes. Add in the Swordfish being so slow the anti aircraft predictors couldn't track it (that and the inability to fly at much more than wave height) and you have several examples of supposedly poor planes doing quite well.

There's a few scenarios (at least one in 43 East and one in 45 West) where you get an axuiliary hero unit for a scenario. That could be a fairly easy way to provide appropriate recognition for robust designs in the hands of skilled pilots as an alternative (or an addition) to beefing up the air defence. The Polikarpov's are surprisingly difficult to destroy even without any boosts.

And another unit based on the model made by Lobo for Forgotten Hope: a Polish Hurricane Mk. I. Interestingly, this plane (and the livery) is not completely non-historical, there really were Polish Hurricanes. I was thinking of making this into a contest, but I doubt there would be winners , so here's the story. And no, this is not a story about the Polish Air Force fighting alongside the RAF during and after the battle of Britain.

First the truth: shortly before the war the Brits and the French finally decided to sell Poland some decent planes. Obviously Poland was interested the most in buying 100 Spitfires, but such modern designs were reserved for the RAF. In the end Poland did buy a number of planes, among them between betwee 100 and 120 of Fairey Battle bombers (sources differ as to the exact number), 30 Hurricanes Mk I and a single Spitfire. Already on July 24, 1939 the first "Polish" Hurricane was ready. It was a Mark I plane (factory number L2048) of the early version (fabric-covered), in standard British camo, but with metric avionics, a non-standard two-blade propeller, Polish checkerboards and Polish language markings on the tail - similar to those all other Polish military aircraft had at the time. The plane was disassembled, stored in crates and dispatched to Gdynia. However, upon reaching the Bay of Danzig on August 26, the ship's captain received orders to escape to neutral waters, which he did. The remainder of the first batch of 15 Hurricanes (this time with three-blade propellers) was also completed before the war and loaded on August 28 in Liverpool onto SS Lassel bound for the Romanian port of Constanța (at the time Poland and Romania shared a border and were allied to each other, so Constanta was a safer harbour than Gdynia, sandwiched between Germany and East Prussia). Apart from 14 Hurricanes, the ship also transported 7 Fairey Battles, 500 tons of bombs, 3 million 0.303 bullets and service parts. The third transport left Liverpool on September 18 for Constanta with 20 more Faireys and the Spitfire. However, around September 14 both ships were ordered back and eventually most of the Polish order went to Turkey.

But that's not the end of this story. Although the Germans and their Soviet allies conquered Poland, Hawker Aircraft continued the construction of the remaining planes of the Polish order (factory numbers N2322-N2324, N2327 and N2392-N2395). However, for some unknown reason the Polish government did not collect the planes, even though it paid for them in advance (at the time Polish pilots in France flew the Caudron C.714 death traps for lack of better equipment) and eventually the Hurricanes were sold to Finland in February 1940.

Now the punch line. Soon afterwards the RAF realised that it's loosing too many pilots and the first Polish fighter squadrons formed on British soil (Nos. 302 and 303) started receiving the first Hurricane fighters, just in time to take part in the battle of Britain. Those were the good old Hurricane Mark I fighters ordered and paid for by Poland a year before. And guess what was the plane supplied to the two first Polish bomber squadrons..? Yeah, you guessed it: Fairey Battle.

And finally the what-ifs and the "almost-historical" part. I could have given this model a typically Polish camo (plain khaki) or leave it in the standard type B British camo of the epoch. Instead I chose a middle option, as if the plane had originally been painted with the British camo, but was then overpainted khaki on some airfield. The squadron insignia is of the 132 Fighter Escadrille.

And a side-story to my post above, a Polish Morane-Saulnier MS-406.

Poland was trying to buy French planes for quite a long time. However, it was not until 1939 that France finally agreed. The Poles were interested in Dewoitine D.520, at the time still under development, but in the end both sides agreed to an order of 160 MS-406 fighters. On August 8, 1939 the first two Polish pilots (Capt. Andrzej Włodarkiewicz and eng. Roland Kalpas) started training with the new aircraft in France. However, already two days later Włodarkiewicz was killed by his MS-406 near Paleseau near Paris. The order was then reduced to 120 fighters, but none were delivered to Poland before September 1939. Interestingly, at least 30 fighters scheduled for Poland were delivered to Turkey.

And again, guess what planes did the first large Polish air unit fighting in France receive? Yup, the MS-406. It seems the business with Polish pilots fighting over France and Great Britain in 1940 was not "we give you planes, you give us pilots" but "you give us planes and pilots and we allow you to fight with us".

The model came out darker than I expected. Any idea how to correct that in 2D, without having to reskin it?

Halibutt wrote:Not too late I have "0 days left", but the 3ds max still works

Heh, like I wrote, too late considering the fact that I'd have to check for the list on my old computer.
It was just some rare units, like the Kugelblitz (I tried to make one myself later), some of the prototype tanks and the odd non-german unit. If I ever get around to it, I'll try making the units myself, but for most there's at least SOME icon available, so it's not a huge loss. Thanks for the consideration, though.

Halibutt wrote:The model came out darker than I expected. Any idea how to correct that in 2D, without having to reskin it?

I have no idea what painting program you use, but I use Paint.NET, which has a functionality called "Curves" which I use for such purpose.
Here's a quick and dirty version to give you an idea how it looks:

_____
rezaf

rezaf wrote:
Heh, like I wrote, too late considering the fact that I'd have to check for the list on my old computer.
It was just some rare units, like the Kugelblitz (I tried to make one myself later), some of the prototype tanks and the odd non-german unit. If I ever get around to it, I'll try making the units myself, but for most there's at least SOME icon available, so it's not a huge loss. Thanks for the consideration, though.

_____
rezaf

@rezaf

I lost my laptop, then lost ur Luftwaffe Secret weapon pack also. Do you still have them

T2_2112 wrote:@rezaf

I lost my laptop, then lost ur Luftwaffe Secret weapon pack also. Do you still have them

Do you have any issue with the download that's in the SWotL thread?
_____
rezaf

Nice job on those airplanes, Halibutt

bebro wrote:Nice job on those airplanes, Halibutt

More like nice job on everything!

Also, I have a few Polish icons made by guille that you may like (including a Pz 38 and a P-47) would you be interested?

- BNC

Halibutt wrote:Not too late I have "0 days left", but the 3ds max still works

Actually, my desktop is currently doing some heavy lifting in the background, so I can't turn it off. And I figured that as long as I don't close the program, it's still the last day of the trial, right? Any more requests?

rezaf wrote:Heh, like I wrote, too late considering the fact that I'd have to check for the list on my old computer.
It was just some rare units, like the Kugelblitz (I tried to make one myself later), some of the prototype tanks and the odd non-german unit. If I ever get around to it, I'll try making the units myself, but for most there's at least SOME icon available, so it's not a huge loss. Thanks for the consideration, though.

You want Kugelblitz? I'll give you Kugelblitz One Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz coming up

I chose the winter camo texture mostly because it's easier to skin it in Camo Sprayshop. It's up to scale with vanilla Pz IV.

rezaf wrote:I have no idea what painting program you use, but I use Paint.NET, which has a functionality called "Curves" which I use for such purpose.
Here's a quick and dirty version to give you an idea how it looks:

Thanks Rezaf, I was never any good with photo correction and it seems I completely forgot about the curves Oh, and I use GIMP most of the time.

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:Also, I have a few Polish icons made by guille that you may like (including a Pz 38 and a P-47) would you be interested?

- BNC

Sure, the more the merrier, post a link somewhere around here

bebro wrote:Nice job on those airplanes, Halibutt

Thanks mate. Sadly, I'm almost out of models (Czechoslovak planes anyone?), so it would mean that it's time to drop the 3D fun and focus on the tedious part: mapmaking, scenarios and such.