Slitherine

Yes it might be that the army structure isn't helping there. It will be interesting to see if there is a flavour of elephant armies that works. Perhaps it'll be one of those things where you need a mass of them all together, or a bunch of lancers to support. e.g. three units side by side led by generals with lancers on either flank perhaps.
grahambriggsBrigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2085Joined: 12 Sep 2008 09:48

Champa/Khmerr are fun : 8 BG of elephants, some drilled infantry , some drilled bowmen, light cavalry ( 1 unit ), 1 unit of CV with xbow ...Ok the infantry is not great but used to support the morale of the elephants it is funny . VS and LB army i just charged frontally ( V1) ...and got beaten but each army was at 1 point of breaking ...so the first to loose a unit would loose the battle and I rolled a 1 on a death roll ...a deadly mistake

The elephants are roughly the same cost as a BG of 4 undrilled protected superior lancers - troops which can do well in the right circumstances or fail miserably.

They may be similiar to each other in their ability to "do well in the right circumstances" but the cav have no where near the potential to "fail miserably". They have a greater ability to manouver to avoid trouble, are less susceptible to shooting and combat CT's (as superiors), break off from a losing fight and have to lose three bases before they autobreak.

Elephants can rarely avoid a fight and once they are in it they either win big quickly or go home.

Martin

marty wrote:

The elephants are roughly the same cost as a BG of 4 undrilled protected superior lancers - troops which can do well in the right circumstances or fail miserably.

They may be similiar to each other in their ability to "do well in the right circumstances" but the cav have no where near the potential to "fail miserably". They have a greater ability to manouver to avoid trouble, are less susceptible to shooting and combat CT's (as superiors), break off from a losing fight and have to lose three bases before they autobreak.

Elephants can rarely avoid a fight and once they are in it they either win big quickly or go home.

Martin

I was commenting on their cheapness as you'd said they were expensive. They're also cheaper than 8 HF warband, that manouver even worse.

If you think they are so dreadful, why do you persist?

Hi guys

On Wednesday night my Later Ottomans took on Adrian Steer's EAP's.

I was expecting the hoplites but Adrian in his wisdom went with 3 BG's of MF Bowman with Light Spear front rank and 2 BG's of Immortals plus other shooters.

My Jannissaries faced off against the MF Bowman but the Immortals rushed in to help. I also had a BG of Armoured Knights who went in against the MF Bowman and Immortals together. The first time they bounced off but the second time they exploded losing 2 bases in 1 round. At this point I knew my Jannissaries were facing certain doom but I tried picking on things around the edges.

As time was called I was close to breaking Adrian's army but we both agreed his shooting and tests were well below average and the true result should have been a loss to the Later Ottomans.

I think MF bowman shooting with both ranks and Light Spear are potentially a good buy in V2. The impact for mounted is very hairy with no - POA on the impact back rank shooting. Shove a general in like Adrian did and he is expect a few hits. Also my Jannissaries didn't really facy charging his bow as they would have been down at impact with less dice.

I'm still racking my brains for which army I should now concentrate on for the rest of the year.

Any tips? LOL

Rob

If you have a clean slate would suggest an army based around Mixed Heavy Weapon front with Xbow rear. Han or Medieval Scandinavian (Denmark or Sweden)

In v2 the Hvy wpn are no longer trumped by skilled sword (or skirmishers).
The xbow are better at shooting, + vs prot and armoured cav
and there is no minus when support shooting

Your Daylami could be a reasonable option as the nerfing of skilled sword means there is less chance of facing these and the improvement of impact favours them.

I'm shying away from HW as their initial impact against mounted and impact foot can be scary.

I'm wondering if the Later Ottomans can stick hack it, especially if a lot more foot shooters appear in competitions.

I'm thinking of something with good impact capabilities.

Rob

Robert241167 wrote:I'm shying away from HW as their initial impact against mounted and impact foot can be scary.

Well impact foot are not that common in open tournaments (although could become more so) and if you have the HW with crossbow rear rank then you are at evens vs impact foot anyway (3 dice needing 5s vs 2 dice needing 4s) and have the advantage in impact against mounted (before quality re-rolls).

Robert241167 wrote: I'm thinking of something with good impact capabilities.

Obviously Dailami or Catalan are fast-moving drilled impact foot armies. Samnite as well.

Jewish Revolt is interesting, I'd switch to using the superior bow as all MF. But it is undrilled.

Swiss is still good, possibly the movement changes - and recommended table-size reduction if adopted - make it harder for opposing armies to skip out the way. Although the changes to the number of BGs allowed in battle lines might require careful army design so you can move to attack as quick as possible.

I don't think cavalry lancers have gotten any worse, although if armoured knights get more popular...

... and thinking of armoured knights. Of course, the trick is everyone else is moving to a particular army type, move one step ahead and go for the counter.

marty wrote: Elephants can rarely avoid a fight and once they are in it they either win big quickly or go home.

So historically accurate then?

Polkovnik

Lancer mounted would be on a ++ POA at impact so needing 3's probably with a general.

Medium Foot Heavy Weapon would need 2 5's and a 4.

I give the mounted the slight edge providing they are steady at impact.

Rob

Elephants can rarely avoid a fight and once they are in it they either win big quickly or go home.


So historically accurate then?

Indeed, but hardly a 25 point troop type and they should always "Win Big" in combat with anything on a horse and they dont.

If you think they are so dreadful, why do you persist?

Just painted some new models and planning on using them in an upcoming comp.

Interestingly had another practise game last night and for the first time no combat for the elephants, it was also the first practise with the army I have lost. Maybe the key to victory with this army is to lose with the elephants.

Martin

Robert241167 wrote:Polkovnik

Lancer mounted would be on a ++ POA at impact so needing 3's probably with a general.

Medium Foot Heavy Weapon would need 2 5's and a 4.

I give the mounted the slight edge providing they are steady at impact.

Rob

No they wouldn't. They are Heavy Foot (in medieval Danish / Swedish armies, which is what I was talking about.)

Sorry Polkovnik

I was looking at the lists with medium foot heavy weapon.

I agree there are both heavy foot and medium foot heavy weapon lists depending on which army you choose.

Rob

marty wrote:Indeed, but hardly a 25 point troop type and they should always "Win Big" in combat with anything on a horse and they dont.

With three dice at impact and + POA vs disordered opponent the odds are way in favour of the elephants against any mounted. Maybe you've been unlucky in one or two games, so why not try running through the same elephants vs mounted combat a few times and see what results you get.

marty wrote:

Elephants can rarely avoid a fight and once they are in it they either win big quickly or go home.


So historically accurate then?

Indeed, but hardly a 25 point troop type and they should always "Win Big" in combat with anything on a horse and they dont.

See battle report of Goths vs Malay. We found the elephants were scarier at impact and none of the 3BGs in combat died. They stomped a lancer cavalry BG flat in short order and put the Goth war bands on the back foot. However, my opponent used them well, never getting them isolated except vs the BG of 4 cavalry and that wasn't a problem.

Trying a Kushan list tomorrow, I'll see how Cats & Elephants work together, and try some of the protected Cv.