Slitherine

david53 wrote:

madaxeman wrote: I can't see many of these armies ever cutting it in open competition !!

Come on we'll see some Early Libyians or Nubian armies at Britcon don't you think In fact I'd go that extra mile for research for fellow FOG players and play my six games against the Libyians and Nubians
Dave

Dave, I will give you a game with Libyans at the club sometime. You are free to bring any army you want

Right - having now played 2 games with NKE, it appears to me that they are utterly rubbish.

With my opponents being Babylonians and Assyrians, both have been able to dish out a wall of heavy chariots, armoured cavalry, protected - or even armoured - mixed Bw/Lt Sp/Sword formations ... against which the NKE seem to have no real answer to any of these troops at all, save a paltry 8 superior armoured HF who can just about go toe-to-toe for a while..or the frankly unappealing prospect of hoping to getting very lucky at impact with some undrilled protected impact foot Sea Peoples against enemy bowmen, who are rolling 3 dice to my 2 at impact, irrespective of factors.

Is NKE viable at all ? Is any army that doesnt either have armoured troops, or a wall of spearmen remotely viable in Age of Beagles?

Any why do 8 bases of Kushite bowmen magically become protected when all the earlier egyptian bowmen are unprotected ?

yours, confused.....

madaxeman wrote:Any why do Kushite bowmen magically become protected when earlier egyptian bowmen are unprotected ?

All 8 bases of Protected archers you mean?

Sure, ignore the 72 bases of Unprotected archers, clearly they don't count.

Right - having now played 2 games with NKE, it appears to me that they are utterly rubbish.
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Unfortunate if it's true as this is a popular army.....I have expected there are 3-4 good armies here......NKE may not qualify. The NKE has been given the option for their crappy foot to move through their crappy archers. However I'm not sure that will help as most things won't mind fighting either one, and once lines close this ability is countered very easily.

I would like the odds of the sea peoples into the bowmen though
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With my opponents being Babylonians and Assyrians, both have been able to dish out a wall of heavy chariots, armoured cavalry, protected - or even armoured - mixed Bw/Lt Sp/Sword formations ... against which the NKE seem to have no real answer to any of these troops at all, save a paltry 8 superior armoured HF who can just about go toe-to-toe for a while..or the frankly unappealing prospect of hoping to getting very lucky at impact with some undrilled protected impact foot Sea Peoples against enemy bowmen, who are rolling 3 dice to my 2 at impact, irrespective of factors.

Is NKE viable at all ? Is any army that doesnt either have armoured troops, or a wall of spearmen remotely viable in Age of Beagles?
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I see the Assyrians just won a limited open in France against mostly non biblical opponents (but pre Knights). Some of these armies are very playable in opens. I for one am still not confinced of narrow theme tourney's that will only draw 3-4 viable army varieties, and we don't have the pool for it in the US anyway.

madaxeman wrote:Havig now played 1 game of StB, my conclusion is that armoured close formation foot are the absolute gods of war in this period. In fact, anything armoured at all is pretty astounding.

I can't see many of these armies ever cutting it in open competition !!

I am playing Neo Assyrians exclusively at the moment for our club league and would gladly take them to an open comp.
Everything is fast or drilled, not mauch of any one troop type and anything outclassed by troops from later periods can evade or gets shooting to posisbly give an edge before impact.

Anthony

madaxeman wrote:Right - having now played 2 games with NKE, it appears to me that they are utterly rubbish.

I cant say for sure but I am looking forward to playing a similar army after morhing my neoassyrians into later assyrians.

Pretty much straight up I am swapping a skythian ally and the heavy foot for more superior light chariots w bow.

Comparing 4 superior armoured Cav with Bow/Sw with 4 assyrian/egypitan light chariots:

You have even odds at impact
They get a plus in mellee
you get four shots to thier three as you approach oneanother
you can evade and still shoot to yoru rear
you get 8 dice in mellee to thier 4!

current list target is something like:
3TC
1 FC subgeneral

4 poor LF javenlinmen
8 poor mob
6 Avg LF sling
6 Avg LF sling
8 Ave MF LtSpear/bow mixed formation drilled
8 Ave MF LtSpear/bow mixed formation drilled
4 Ave Cav Arm Bw* LtSpear/Sw drilled
4 Sup LCh Bow drilled
4 Sup LCh Bow drilled
4 Sup LCh Bow drilled
4 Sup LCh Bow drilled
4 Sup HCh Bow drilled

6 Field fortifiations (to deploy heavies forward or hide the MF if in steppe)

The most difficult opponent would be a longbow army. The only real aggressive option then is to screen with the LF one deep to user the other troops into impact.

Is it me or is every army Tim uses rubbish?

What does this tell us

You have even odds at impact
They get a plus in mellee
you get four shots to thier three as you approach oneanother
you can evade and still shoot to yoru rear
you get 8 dice in mellee to thier 4!

The Cav are plus in melee for sword,
Or you can take 6 shots from 2 BG whilst you give 2 shots each to 2 BG. Odds much worse for Ch
Evade and get caught?
But the 8 melee dice is good.

hammy wrote:

david53 wrote:

madaxeman wrote: I can't see many of these armies ever cutting it in open competition !!

Come on we'll see some Early Libyians or Nubian armies at Britcon don't you think In fact I'd go that extra mile for research for fellow FOG players and play my six games against the Libyians and Nubians
Dave

Dave, I will give you a game with Libyans at the club sometime. You are free to bring any army you want

Let me get the Sea Peoples army finished and we'll have a game

nikgaukroger wrote:Is it me or is every army Tim uses rubbish?
What does this tell us

To keep a keen eye out on eBay in the near future...?

philqw78 wrote:

You have even odds at impact
They get a plus in mellee
you get four shots to thier three as you approach oneanother
you can evade and still shoot to yoru rear
you get 8 dice in mellee to thier 4!

The Cav are plus in melee for sword,
Or you can take 6 shots from 2 BG whilst you give 2 shots each to 2 BG. Odds much worse for Ch
Evade and get caught?
But the 8 melee dice is good.

If a single unit of 4 cavalry let you hit them with 4 chariots and get an overlap on both wides, even I agree you should win.

And on "points per combat dice", they are good value. But as long as an enemy keeps in a coherent line and so avoids overlaps, the chariots are not really cutting it IMO. As the "skirmish troops" of the biblical era, their inability to turn 180 and move (compared to LH) reduces their value - probably to a reasonable degree given their points costs relative to cavalry.

madaxeman wrote:As the "skirmish troops" of the biblical era, their inability to turn 180 and move (compared to LH) reduces their value - probably to a reasonable degree given their points costs relative to cavalry.

But unlike cavalry they can actually shoot to their rear. While not as good as light horse it can give light chariots an edge.

Truely - many thanks to the host of you who've taken the time, & trouble to point out (quite rightly) that I just hadn't read the rules on Heavy Chariot/Chariot shooting

Had we played it correctly - the Elephants might have made it into the melee which would almost certainly turned things in the Cataphracts favour.
However, we did play it correctly that the Cats & Chariots both threw double dice on impact & that the Cats had (non-knightly) lance but despite their superior status they still threw pretty crap dice The fact that the chariots still throw double dice in the on-going melee is of course a huge advantage, despite the fact that the Cats are swordsmen.

Anyway ... I AM dusting down my Classical Indians purely because I'm on the perpetual quest to find a set of rules that gives them a totally unhistorical chance of winning!

Cheers
Mark

Use the drilled version of the Indians is probably the best bit of advice I can give if you must use them. Beat Spartans with them once. Wouldn't expect to do it again.

rbodleyscott wrote:

madaxeman wrote:I can't see many of these armies ever cutting it in open competition !!

Perhaps it is time to consign the "open competition" to the dustbin of wargames history.

That would be fine. It is supposed to be vaguely histroical after all.

Last night at the club about 8 spectators wandered aroudn and one mused last week I saw som romans fighting knights and that was just strange.

Ghaznavid wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: Perhaps it is time to consign the "open competition" to the dustbin of wargames history.

You maybe be able to do that on your island, but in areas where getting 12+ player together for a viable competition isn't a given, restricting the army choice is a somewhat foolish idea, regretably.

Kartsen, don't you think you can get broad themes? Say post-1150? Or Swords and Decline?

In my experience as long as you pick popular periods and not "Upper Nile Armies" you are good. And a touch of patience in morphing.

nikgaukroger wrote:Is it me or is every army Tim uses rubbish?

What does this tell us

The other day he played me using Hungarians and DIDN'T complain. Mind you it was a draw...

hazelbark wrote:

Ghaznavid wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: Perhaps it is time to consign the "open competition" to the dustbin of wargames history.

You maybe be able to do that on your island, but in areas where getting 12+ player together for a viable competition isn't a given, restricting the army choice is a somewhat foolish idea, regretably.

Kartsen, don't you think you can get broad themes? Say post-1150? Or Swords and Decline?

In my experience as long as you pick popular periods and not "Upper Nile Armies" you are good. And a touch of patience in morphing.

I might find that out in a tourney I plan to run in autumn, thinking of something early/high medieval, might have to go ancients instead though. I've my doubts either way however.
Lots of people here only own a few armies and usually it's either all medieval or all ancients. Even many with more armies are rather limited in the periods they can play in. (Actually I'm guilty here myself. Aside from late Principate/early Dominate Romans I've currently no FoG armies before 1000 AD. There are still a couple of 6th Edition armies for earlier periods awaiting rebasing (and painting additional minis, often not just a few) but since my favoured period is Medievals, getting those earlier armies playable in FoG is pretty low on my priority list. Instead I'm busy painting up armies I always fancied but never bothered with due to them having a wacky army list or generally being crap in 6th Ed. Later Hungarians currently with Catalan Company next in line.)
Since I'm not the only with such tendecies and given a small (tournament) player pool (made even worse by Germany currently being rather evenly devided between DBM, DBMM and FoG) it's not easy getting enough players for an themed tournament, even with a broad theme.

If you look at how the NKE army actually fared against the Assyrians, the Kushites, and other armies of the period, their "lack-lustre" performance in these rules is historically accurate. Those 8 stands of "protected" archers represent the acknowledgement, too little and too late, that sending masses of unarmored levies against armored professional troops wasn't necessarily a good idea.

honvedseg wrote:If you look at how the NKE army actually fared against the Assyrians, the Kushites, and other armies of the period, their "lack-lustre" performance in these rules is historically accurate. Those 8 stands of "protected" archers represent the acknowledgement, too little and too late, that sending masses of unarmored levies against armored professional troops wasn't necessarily a good idea.

But their hats are sooooo waaayyy cooolll!!!