Slitherine

MrPlow wrote:

ftgcritt2 wrote:I don't understand why everyone is so eager to go ahead and declare MrPlow the winner here, especially when the proverbial ball is as firmly in his opponents court as it could possibly be....

Ftgcritt2 I could not agree with your points more. In this case, Allied Command thought the political pressures of letting the Nazi menace occupy even part of British soil would be worse than military defeat. This led to the strategic plan of attacking the enemy at sea and on the beaches instead of the more logical guerrilla style defense. Unfortunately this resulted in the Germans being able to use their airforce to full effect against the Royal Navy. This is my first PBEM game as well as my first game playing the bjr mod. I am still understanding the new game mechanics and my style of play against a human opponent on a new mod. My inexperience has been thoroughly proven with the many careless Allied mistakes throughout this bloody war, but I will crawl my way back up from the brink of defeat. My opponent has alluded to the fact that his army is "in shambles" but I'm not quite so sure. The casualties list is without a doubt in axis favour and I will post it later when I have the opportunity.
Cheers,
MrPlow

From my perspective, there are two big problems for the Allies here: First, it's not losing England so much as losing the RN, as pointed out above. I'm curious, exactly how much remains of your navy? With an intact navy, there's a chance to protect the convoys and to rebound when America declares war. Second, there's the situation in North Africa. From reading this thread, it seems to me as if the UK exhausted itself in its assault on Libya just at a time when it could least afford it. Tobruk's a tough nut to crack, and the returns are pretty paltry, even in the BJR mod. With such a massive invasion of England going on, Egypt could have held out very nicely for a long time. Consider, it would take quite a while to divert enough air power from England to Libya. After the fall of England, sure, Axis could perhaps force its way through Port Said--but meanwhile what's happening in Russia?

ftgcritt2 wrote: What made this possible was the fact that he was able to save the RAF, the Royal Navy, and retain N Ireland as a springboard from which to launch air attacks against the main island, all of which MrPlow has failed to do. And lets not forget N Africa, where the Axis can now freely reinforce for a drive into the middle east oil fields.

In relation with this I invite you all to read these conclusions about Sea Lion with an initial german sucess: "The third factor is air superiority, easily the most famous of them all due to the Battle of Britain. Much too famous, since many people falsely assume that German victory in the Battle of Britain is all that would be necessary to permit a successful invasion. I hope that the rest of my essay demonstrates that it is not all that is necessary, but indeed, Germany does need to establish air superiority - preferably even total air supremacy - over the Channel and the invasion beaches for the invasion to work. The problem is that winning the Battle of Britain doesn't allow them to do this. Even if Britain was not consistently outproducing Germany in aircraft, and even if Britain did not have numerous advantages such as fighting on home turf (meaning that they could usually recover pilots who were shot down, while the Germans could not), and the use of Radar to give early warning of German attacks, that would not be good enough. Even if the British did not have the Spitfire fighter (which was not so important at that point in the war, when Hurricanes were much more numerous, shot down many more aicraft, and were considerably cheaper to build and maintain), even if the Germans had continued their program of bombing RAF airbases instead of turning to attack London (which would hurt the RAF more, but not be nearly enough to turn the tide), even if the British leadership had been different and decided to follow the much-inferior "Big Wing" policy of air defense, this wouldn't be enough.
The reason none of this would be enough is because of what the RAF planned to do if it lost the Battle of Britain. Quite simply, they would withdraw all surviving fighter groups to the north of Britain, out of range of German fighters, where they would be essentially invulnerable to attack. They would wait there until the Germans launched an invasion attempt, whereupon they would immediately fly south en masse to attack, denying the Germans air superiority. So due to this quirk of geography and German fighter range, there is basically no way for the Germans to get air superiority over the invasion (without, say, multiplying the size of their air force by many times - which would, again, require great advance planning and mean taking resources from some other part of the war effort), because the British would withdraw enough aircraft to safety to cause serious problems for an invasion. Something often overlooked about the Battle of Britain is that the British had multiple fighter groups, several of which were based to the north, out of range of attack. These were used as places where the pilots could rest, aircraft could be repaired, et cetera. They were at fairly high strength during the Battle, and thus even total annihlation of the aircraft actually in the fight would leave the RAF with plenty of aircraft in reserve for Sealion.
Withdrawing to the north would indeed leave the south of Britain vulnerable to bombing, but bombing was never decisive in the war even when the Allies launched thousand-bomber raids against poorly defended targets in 1944. In 1940 the Luftwaffe bombers, flying unopposed, would cause a good bit of damage and be very annoying, but they would not seriously impair Britain's ability to carry on the war, or to build up its defenses against German invasion."[/list]

ftgcritt2 wrote:

leridano wrote:

raffo80 wrote:I think Allies will win this game easily and germany won't even get close to take leningrad or moscow.

Sealion IMO damages Germany. One thing is if sealion is a walkover, but otherwise germany loses so many PP just by getting troops to UK and getting them back to europe that makes barbarossa impossible in '41.

and for axis the war in russia is the key.

I´m agree with raffo80. This game shows us how a hypothetical invasion of England would engaged the germans so much that they would have the soviets so close in their arse that probably Red army might be in Berlin in early 1943 or even on summer 1942... This would work if allied player develops an offensive strategy for the soviets instead of a deffensive one...

I don't understand why everyone is so eager to go ahead and declare MrPlow the winner here, especially when the proverbial ball is as firmly in his opponents court as it could possibly be. I agree that Sea Lion is usually a mistake, but lets not forget what the German player was able to accomplish here in addition to taking over England. He also managed to almost completely wipe out the Royal Navy. How MrPlow managed to let that happen is beyond me. Here is a link to an AAR between rkr and happycat in which rkr as the allies managed to recover from a successful sea lion.

http://www.knology.net/~benrunyan/RKR-J ... y-Play.pdf

What made this possible was the fact that he was able to save the RAF, the Royal Navy, and retain N Ireland as a springboard from which to launch air attacks against the main island, all of which MrPlow has failed to do. And lets not forget N Africa, where the Axis can now freely reinforce for a drive into the middle east oil fields.

Germany is much stronger than you realize with all of the production coming in from UK. I'm sure if he would be so kind as to give us a casualty update, then you would see that his casualties have not been as high as you suspect. The UK was very lightly defended because most of its army was destroyed in France, and if MrPlow takes your advice and tries to go on the offensive too soon with Russia, then its going to get ugly. MrPlow, I'm rooting for you, but I think you're on a slippery slope.

Germany lost 160PP (10 units x 8 x 2) to move units to england and back to europe. This is without counting the fighting there. Let's say the nazi just lost 80PP (armor and air reinforcing mainly) in taking uk. We are talking about 240PP loss. England gives germany 10PP/turn. So germany breaks even the losses in PP in 24 turns (16 months). So compared to russia, germany is weaker than without sealion.

Germany also lost oil. And this has no break even, unless germany reaches iraq. But iraq means moving german armor to africa (more PP and oil used) and slowly getting to iraq. we are at the end of '40. germany won't get oilfields before late '41. but in '41 shouldn't germany try to take moscow leningrad? how is supposed germany to hold russia if in '41 you don't take many russian cities and kill russian units with your better tech?

So in '41 germany lacks 220PP (2 tactical bombers or neraly 3 armors), it lacks also 4-6 infantry (Uk is an island, so you need to leave there some infantry cause you won't move fast units to UK once USA invade and garrison can't be moved to UK). It also lacks oil. And all this to have 10PP a turn and take out 20PP to UK. But in '43 it won't matter if UK has 20PP less, USA+russia outproduce germany anyway and will retake UK (or in late '42) regardless of royal navy beeing destroyed.
But in '41 it matters for germany to not beeing able to knock out russia. since this is the only chance for germany to hold later in the game.

leridano wrote:The reason none of this would be enough is because of what the RAF planned to do if it lost the Battle of Britain. Quite simply, they would withdraw all surviving fighter groups to the north of Britain, out of range of German fighters, where they would be essentially invulnerable to attack. They would wait there until the Germans launched an invasion attempt, whereupon they would immediately fly south en masse to attack, denying the Germans air superiority.

I agree completely with everything you write. The strategy mentioned above is just the one I use to defend against Sealion. I withdraw my fighters and bomber so they're outside range of German fighter range. This way the Germans can't force the British fighters to intercept any Axis attacks. I even place my British infantry reserve outside Axis air range. Then it will also be outside Axis spotting range. So they can't be
softened up before Sealion starts.

The Germans will then be forced to bombard the coastal garrisons I place along the Channel coast or the London corps.

The Royal navy is also located within striking range of all coastal hexes, but outside German air range. It means they will be at full strength when they attack. Most of the navy can be located near Edinburgh and some near Cardiff (or between Plymouth and Brest to close off the Channel from the west).

Randy tried to launch a Sealion against me and failed miserably. He bumped into the British sub blocking the access to the Channel from the east. Then the British could easily attack the DD from 3 hexsides and kill it. His BB and some subs were located near Wilhelmshaven and other British naval units attacked here outside the German air range. The BB lost 7 steps and a DD stumbled upon a sub in the Skagerrak inflicting 3 steps on the sub while receiving some.

The Luftwaffe will retaliate against the British naval units near London, but only 2 attacks per unit is allowed so they can withdraw to port for repairs. Germany only has a 3 step BB to provide supply for his ENTIRE Sealion offensive. It's simply impossible to get ashore and remain there until he will lose all supply. One turn is enough to kill the BB even though he uses a big transport screen. The Royal airforce can be moved so it can bombard the BB from the air if it comes to the coast line.

British corps units will protect all ports so the Germans must land 2 hexes or more from the city. That means they will lose supply before they get to a port.

So I definitely think the best way for the Allies to counter Sealion is to stay away from the deadly Luftwaffe until Sealion starts. Then you move in with all you have and go after the DD and BB first to kill the only supply units Germany has. Germany simply can't afford to buy new naval units in addition to a leader, an extra fighter and tac bomber. So he must make choices. He can wait some turns and launch Sealion in the fall, but then he must get ashore in strength before November or be faced with no invasion possibilities at all due to bad weather. Britain becomes stronger and stronger the longer Germany waits so instead of just having a few corps units to deal with you might be faced with 6+ corps units.
That is definitely no walkover.

I believe that Sealion will mostly succeed as intended against an unprepared Allied player. Then you get the surprise you need to get ashore in force quickly. Not all Allied players know how to defend against Sealion and they will lose. Just look as Mrplows example in his game. He ends up with nothing at all (no airforce, no land units and no navy). That is a major defeat. Even his offensive in Libya stalled because he lost his airforce and CV there.

Maybe the best Sealion offensive Germany can make against a determined Allied player is to start the Battle of Britain to deplete Axis units and place land units and the navy in ports so the British player knows Sealion might take place. That forces the British player to build corps units and delay lab builds and also air and naval units. You have to wait with building Monty for Egypt as well. If you then DON'T launch Sealion then Britain will be stuck with several corps and air units he can't use for anything good for several years. He can send these units to Egypt, but it costs 8 PP's per unit and they become vulnerable to sub attacks en-route. Instead the Germans can blitz into Greece and then storm Egypt with air support from Crete. So instead of winning the England prize you get the more important Iraq prize.

If the British player ignores the Sealion threat you're making THEN you can go ahead with Sealion as planned. I think playing CeaW is a bit like playing chess. You need to force your opponent into making suboptimal moves and then exploit this. Then you will gain an initiative and can capitalize upon that to make the initiative even bigger and eventually win the game. If the Germans don't do anything against the British then Britain will build labs, some DD's, more air units and a leader for Egypt. So Germany's goal should be to force Britain into spending his PP's on something else. That will disrupt the British plans. E. g. fewer labs means a bigger German tech advantage. Fewer DD's means the subs will get more attack opportunities. Fewer air units for Egypt means a later Allied offensive against Tobruk. Instead Britain will have a stronger land force in Britain, but those units can not be used effectively before the Allies intend to launch Torch or Overlord or something similar.

There's more discussion of Sea Lion; especially in the context of the BJR mod, in this thread

viewtopic.php?p=85715#85715

A lot of it applies to what's happened in this game.

Again, thanks to MrPlow for taking the time to post this AAR. It's very interesting and it's generated a lot of good discussion.

The write up has been very interesting...and am sure the game has been enjoyable...you don't have to be on the side that is advancing gloriously to have fun at a game ...sometimes being the underdog is far more interesting ...esp when you can turn the other guy into the underdog at a later point

Anyone with game experience...how were the German losses that were posted? Mild? Typical? Excessive?

April 23, 1941

"The sun never sets on the British empire..."

Though slightly out of context this quote still holds true for the current situation. We will not be defeated, we will not succumb, instead we will survive, and eventually reclaim and free what is ours and what was taken from the countless subjugated peoples under Nazi tyranny. Though we are in a tough position, the sun never sets, and will never set, on the Allied cause and freedom which it entails....

Situational Report

Glasgow and Scapa flow are in still in Allied hands so the UK has not been completely occupied yet. We are attempting to organize some groups in "Free England" to commit guerrilla warfare and harassment tactics on the Nazi occupation troops. If they have the desire to invade a country that once controlled a 1/3 of the Earth's surface, then they better have the will to keep in "under control". Allied intelligence has confirmed that the United States is undergoing massive Naval Warship construction. Allied High command is still trying to exert political pressure on the US to join the Allied cause but as a country and people, they don't succumb to pressure willingly. Instead they must decide to enter the war on their own, and until this hopefully occurs, the once insignificant Kriegsmarine rules the Atlantic. The Allies are also working on ship construction, though on a smaller scale. Soon, the new British carrier force will lead the Allied army in Libya to victory. The Royal Airforce, which was incorrectly thought to have been destroyed, is currently dodging U-boats en route to Canada. Once these depleted forces rest and rebuild, the Allies will once again be able to contend over the sky.

I'm really glad this AAR allowed for a very interesting discussion to take place. However, its a little regretful that it came about due to the Allied Leader's military incompetence . Again thank you to everyone who reads and comments on the AAR, I really appreciate it! Also, feel free to post anything such as critiques, tips, further discussions, etc; don't think any of these things are off topic and not wanted. Strategy games such as this appeal to an interesting and intelligent select few (maybe I'm an exception ) so I'm sure, and have seen many before, that some fascinating discussions can be created on these forums!

Thanks again!

MrPlow

MrPlow wrote:April 23, 1940

I think you meant April 23, 1941 and not 1940. Also, soon England should have another ally before the US enters.

rkr1958 wrote:I think you meant April 23, 1941 and not 1940. Also, soon England should have another ally before the US enters.

Thanks for the catch! +1 for Allied incompetence lol.

Yes that is true..but as I write my AAR I'm trying to make it from the Allied Commander's perspective during World War 2. As a result, "I" have no idea of Operation Barbarossa or it's political effects until it actually occurs.

MrPlow wrote:

rkr1958 wrote:I think you meant April 23, 1941 and not 1940. Also, soon England should have another ally before the US enters.

Thanks for the catch! +1 for Allied incompetence lol.

Yes that is true..but as I write my AAR I'm trying to make it from the Allied Commander's perspective during World War 2. As a result, "I" have no idea of Operation Barbarossa or it's political effects until it actually occurs.

What my sources tell me, and don't ask me who they are, but they said they heard PM Churchill mumbling something about a German operation in the east.

May 13, 1941

Situational Report

Large Naval Construction program continues including the creation of a carrier force which is roughly 60 days away from completion. Unfortunately, the Africa Korps along with heavy air support arrives in Libya. There is a now high risk of losing North Africa before the Carrier arrives which, to say the least, is very infuriating. In the United Kingdom, a recently trained Partisan Corps appears behind enemy lines in an attempt to disrupt Wehrmacht supply lines. Sadly it was heavily attacked by enemy forces, including armour, and subsequently destroyed in battle. These brave men fought hard, but with outdated and outclassed weapons they could only do so much...

The war continues as Allied Command depresses over the strategic situation...

June 2, 1941

Strategic Situation

The Wehrmacht attacked Greece in full force though the Greeks managed to hold out. Two German corps landed outside Athens hoping for a quick victory but were repulsed. An enemy corps is threatening Crete and British reinforcements cannot be sent due to the lack of a carrier group. Though their were some initial minor successes, Allied command still feels that Greece will fall soon, adding another nation to the list of subjugated peoples. In another unfortunate development, an Italian corps is trying to land behind our lines in Libya which may force the British army to retreat back to Egypt.

Frustration continues as the war wages...

it seems like axis player were playing with oil off option...

June 22, 1941

As has been recently, frustration is the order of the day...

Europe and North America

The Strategic bomber and Fighter groups of the Royal Airforce managed to land in Canada just as a wolf pack appeared near their convoys. That was close...too close. Glasgow and Greece fell, making Europe almost entirely axis controlled except for Scapa Flow, Gibraltar, and the few remaining neutral countires. The massive shipbuilding program continues in North America as the U-boats attack almost unopposed in the Atlantic.

North Africa

Potential disaster lurks in this theatre has the Africa Korps advanced against Allied troops and an Italians Corps flanks behind our lines. Our desert army is withdrawing as fast as possible, but they look to be cutoff shortly. To add insult to injury, a strong British force in Egypt looks on almost uncaring about the tragedy that's about to befall their friends. You'd think they'd care about their allies and attack this weak Italian bridgehead, but alas, they just sit and watch disaster unfold. If the British desert army gets cutoff and destroyed, this may be the end of any meaningful Allied resistance. The carrier group is due to set sail in 40 days, but will it be too late? Only time will tell...

Afrika Corps and Italian Attack


Retr...Withdrawal


The East
Some Axis troop movements have been spotted heading that direction, but nothing really out of the ordinary...

June 22, 1941 2200Z

An epiphany washes over Allied Command after the realization that the Italian landing occured in Egyptian territory. This invasion has enraged the Egyptian government and people, who as a result, join the Allied cause once more. British troops in Egypt mobilize for the counter attack, maybe the British Eighth Army can be saved after all...

Don't you have 3 surface naval units in the Med (including a CV)? Then the Malta supply rule is no longer in effect because you can't support Malta properly to interdict Axis supplies to Libya. I think your main purpose should be to get a CV asap to Gibraltar (it's part of the Med) and declare for your Axis opponent you again have established Malta supply. Then he can't use all the units he has in Libya (2 armor, 1 tac bomber, 1 fighter and maybe some other units).

I always protect my CV's as much as possible because they're so valuable. So the loss of the CV in the Med can mean the loss of Egypt and Iraq for you and then the war. The Italian corps landing behind your line is threatening to cut all supply to your units near Tobruk. It means they can barely move and they will be mopped up by the German units.

Stauffenberg wrote:Don't you have 3 surface naval units in the Med (including a CV)? Then the Malta supply rule is no longer in effect because you can't support Malta properly to interdict Axis supplies to Libya. I think your main purpose should be to get a CV asap to Gibraltar (it's part of the Med) and declare for your Axis opponent you again have established Malta supply. Then he can't use all the units he has in Libya (2 armor, 1 tac bomber, 1 fighter and maybe some other units).

I always protect my CV's as much as possible because they're so valuable. So the loss of the CV in the Med can mean the loss of Egypt and Iraq for you and then the war. The Italian corps landing behind your line is threatening to cut all supply to your units near Tobruk. It means they can barely move and they will be mopped up by the German units.

Haha trust me, those thoughts have crossed my mind. Unfortunately, the CV was taking part in the offensive operation against the Italians in Libya and was ambushed. Blame it on Allied incompetence and underestimation of Italian Naval strength if you will .
An Allied CV is about to be on its way, and I plan on doing what you just mentioned. The Allies have high hopes that the Italian landing can be crushed to allow an orderly retreat from Libya.

On another note, how would you all go about with the defence of Russia. I know it is normally unwise to defend the "River Line", but given how this game has progressed and the most likely later and weaker than normal Barbarossa, do you think it could succeed? After the string of Allied failures, it would be most fortunate if I didn't have to cede a large portion of Soviet territory to the Nazis.

July 12, 1941

Other than mobilizing troops and building ships, everything normal for the allies in North America and Europe.

North Africa

Unfortunately a dire situation is forming in this theatre of operations. The weak Italian bridgehead managed to temporarily cut supplies to our forces in Libya, severely hampering their withdrawal. An Afrika Corps led offensive is attempting to surround them so its all luck whether the Allied troops will be able to make it back or not. Depending on what occurs during the next 20 days, a successful evacuation or unimaginable catastrophe could occur...And to imagine this all occurred because of one single Allied mistake many weeks ago.

August 1, 1941

After every strategic report, Churchill looks down to his desk at the revolver he got as a trophy after the Great War. He wonders if he would be able to force himself, if the day ever came, to load the single bullet into the chamber and follow all the men he killed through his inexcusable mistakes...

North America and North Africa

The Afrika Corps has partially surrounded a portion of the British Desert Force and there is a high chance that at least two infantry corps of the Allied army will be surrounded. A carrier group along with an escorting destroyer force are racing towards the Mediterranean to blockade North Africa and halt the enemy advance, but at the moment it seems they wont make it in time...