Slitherine

They were actually sending a telegram. The missile tanks are just tanks armed with submarine guns.

- BNC

While a 1943 start would require a complete rework of your mod, with how successful your AI was in 1941, 2 years later, there wouldn't be as much AI zones for select battles, like Torch and Stalingrad!

Plus as you said, 1943 is a rather desperate year.

While a victory can still be achieved, it can only be done on one front! Leaving the Player to decide where he/she should focus the war effort!

In the east, the 6th Army has been trapped in Stalingrad, and the Russians prepare to break the Siege of Leningrad!

In the west, the Afrika Korps holds only Tunsia, and if support doesn't arrive, the Allies will evict the Axis powers from Africa! If that happens, the Allies are sure to start landing in Sicily.....

So the Germans really have 2 choices. Reinforce the Africa Corps, or start reinforcing Sicily, or move troops to help the German Armies escape the Stalingrad pocket, and maybe even Assault Liengrad Itself! If Both Stalingrad and Leningrad Fall, the Germans can do what they failed to do in 1941... March on Moscow!

In the West if Axis forces receive new equipment, they can take the fight back the Allies, and go for one last push into Eygpt, should they rout the 8th Army, or Evict the Anglo-American forces from Algeria and Africa, ending the Allied attack from the west, allowing Rommel to focus in the East....

Should the Africa Corps be destroyed, then you can use Italies rough terrain, and thwart the coming invasion!

Each side has it's consequnse however, focus in the east, and the Africa Corps will be overwhelmed, and the Sicily under attack, should it fall, Italy will Surrender.

Focus in the west, and the Russians will destroy the 6th Army in Stalingrad, and might even open a small corridor to Leningrad, allowing the Russians to attack German forces in the Baltic states.

At sea, the German wolf packs lose more and more, due to advanced Allied Depth Charges, and Sonar. The Germans must now improve their Uboats, should they wish to take the initiative back in the Atlantic. The German surface fleet can't leave their home ports without getting hit by the fury of the Royal Navy, with support from the Royal Airforce.

And in the Skies, German Pilots take heavy losses on the Skies with new Allied Fighters and Bombers, but the Germans are still very much a threat, with the new formidable FW-190 Fighter, and JU 87 G's, armed with Anti-Tank cannons! Not to mention Hans Rudel patrols the skies in the east, looking for victims !

In the end, it will add even more depth and General difficult to the mod! I'd like to see Uhu beat that on Rommel! (Knowing McGuba, an entire Army will most likley spawn outside of Moscow, or London!..... before the final blow is dealt!

As for the storm troopers, who needs Cruise Missle A7Vs when the damn Stormtroopers have GpS tracking, infrared AT rockets, and state of the art Sub-Machine guns!

LandMarine47 wrote:As for the storm troopers, who needs Cruise Missle A7Vs when the damn Stormtroopers have GpS tracking, infrared AT rockets, and state of the art Sub-Machine guns!

Less men, more power! (Or even, Same amount of men, too much power for any army to fight them).

My stomrtroopers also now carry special "Moon Shielding" that are shields made of moon-rock, that use the moon's little gravity to mess up any bullet or shell launched at them.

- BNC

I submit

LandMarine47 wrote:Plus as you said, 1943 is a rather desperate year!

Great for seasoned players, but probably way too desperate for newcomers.

The fear of losing, and brutality will turn them into veterans when I first played PzC, it ended I'm Germany.... West and East

LandMarine47 wrote:The fear of losing, and brutality will turn them into veterans when I first played PzC, it ended I'm Germany.... West and East

Well, you will play the WWI campaign for the first time and be very annoyed by the brutality of Mons18 (even cheats would sturggle to beat this scenario's horde!)

Now, post on my forums before I use my stormtrooper corps to hunt you down!

- BNC

I'd rather get back to my writing post other than that all I can really do is suggest new graphics/landmarks. Not very useful of you ask me.

LandMArine47 wrote:
While a 1943 start would require a complete rework of your mod, with how successful your AI was in 1941, 2 years later, there wouldn't be as much AI zones for select battles, like Torch and Stalingrad!

Ah, now I see your point. You are right in this: a later starting point would free up a few AI zones which could be used to implement more battles.

Plus as you said, 1943 is a rather desperate year:

...

Like I wrote, the great majority of the events you mentioned are well modelled in the mod, especially if the player plays in the hisorical way. Even if not, events like the Allied landing in North Africa or the strenghtening of the Allied air forces and ASW measures do happen in 1943, regardless of the player's actions (actually, the number of Allied units landing in North Africa can be reduced by the Axis capture of Gibraltar). Thus for me it would be much easier to start a historical gameplay and make a savegame in each year at the turning points so that players can load them and start from there if they want some extra challenge. Obviously it would be harder and harder to turn the tide with the later starting points. The problem with making a new scenario start is that it would require a major overhaul and I would rather make an Allied version of the same mod, if I had the time. Even that would require less work.

In the end, it will add even more depth and General difficult to the mod! I'd like to see Uhu beat that on Rommel! (Knowing McGuba, an entire Army will most likley spawn outside of Moscow, or London!..... before the final blow is dealt!

I am not that evil, Allied units rarely spawn in the middle of the map in this mod: in most cases Soviet units spawn in the Urals and they have to travel to the frontline wherever it is and Allied units spawn on the ocean and they have to get to the European coasts and land before they start to move against the Axis objectives.


...

I started to implement multipurpose submarines to the mod as suggested by iceFlame. However, I made a few stat changes e.g. I reduced the GD of dived subs to 11-13 from 17 with German U-boats having the greatest GD as they could dive deeper than any other nation's subs. Giving dived subs too high GD would unbalance this mod as it would be too easy to send a few U-boats to the convoy zones, dive deep, and get the prestige award without doing anything. So now this dived mode should really serve only escape / extended survival when under attack. On the other hand, I increased their air defense in this mode to 99 so that they are at least safe form air attacks when dived to crash depth. Which, is a good thing in the early war years, but renders the modeling of the late war 'Fido' acoustic torpedo not possible. The sole problem is that U-boats can still be detected by airplanes and merchants when dived deep, which should not be the case, but I have no idea how to fix it. Even with these compromises I think it will make the Battle of Atlantic more interesting. I also added some new movement sounds to replace the generic 'naval' movement sound, I took the samples from bebro's IJA campaign (I think they originate from VPaulus' sound redux mod, though).

But, I have to rethink Allied counter measures as the U-boats increased capabilites would make the exisiting scenario unbalanced, so probably there will be a few more AI destroyers. I might also add Allied corvettes and frigates.

As the unofficial voice of McGuba , I would agree with that: last time I made several big errors in a line at the defense of Tunis and so the city was captured. After that, hell broke out! Hordes of almost invincible Allied aircraft swarmed the skies and casualties went extrem high. So, if you loose Tunis, do not count with the chance of retaking it and do not count with a possible DV, or maybe even an MV... In Russia, I made "unhistorical" progress by capturing Moscow and Leningrad, still the Soviets attacked still with so much power, that I took also heavy losses. I cancelled the game after turn 81, when I realised, I cannot turn the tides.
So I absolutly can imagine, when the player plays in historical way, the situation would be exact the same as with a direct modelled "Defend the Reich" version. Or maybe even worser... Still it is a good idea to make a special version of that - I most enjoyed also the vanilla campaign "Defend the Reich" with almost impossible defending situations and scarce resources. But I even more enjoy the situations, like in McGuba's mod, where the conditions are very hard but you have absolutely free hand, how to handle/manage the things to achive a victory.

McGuba wrote: Like I wrote, the great majority of the events you mentioned are well modelled in the mod, especially if the player plays in the hisorical way. Even if not, events like the Allied landing in North Africa or the strenghtening of the Allied air forces and ASW measures do happen in 1943, regardless of the player's actions (actually, the number of Allied units landing in North Africa can be reduced by the Axis capture of Gibraltar). Thus for me it would be much easier to start a historical gameplay and make a savegame in each year at the turning points so that players can load them and start from there if they want some extra challenge. Obviously it would be harder and harder to turn the tide with the later starting points. The problem with making a new scenario start is that it would require a major overhaul and I would rather make an Allied version of the same mod, if I had the time. Even that would require less work.

McGuba wrote:I started to implement multipurpose submarines to the mod as suggested by iceFlame.

Cool. Glad to hear construction is underway.

However, I made a few stat changes e.g. I reduced the GD of dived subs to 11-13 from 17 with German U-boats having the greatest GD as they could dive deeper than any other nation's subs.

Indeed. I'm often reminded how the Allies were stunned to discover the U-boats were capable of diving beyond the maximum range of their depth charges in the early war period. Alas, (for the U-boat crews), the happy times were short lived as advances in technology made the depths increasingly dangerous.

Giving dived subs too high GD would unbalance this mod as it would be too easy to send a few U-boats to the convoy zones, dive deep, and get the prestige award without doing anything.

Fair enough. I modeled the GD 17 on the battleship stats, but if as you say it would cause too much unbalance then a reduction would certainly be called for.

So now this dived mode should really serve only escape / extended survival when under attack.

Which is primarily what is was in real life, so no issue there.

On the other hand, I increased their air defense in this mode to 99 so that they are at least safe form air attacks when dived to crash depth. Which, is a good thing in the early war years, but renders the modeling of the late war 'Fido' acoustic torpedo not possible. The sole problem is that U-boats can still be detected by airplanes and merchants when dived deep, which should not be the case, but I have no idea how to fix it.

I've been struggling with this as well. To be honest, this is one of the thorniest issues with the whole concept of deep diving. (Especially if we are to assume most boats would likely switch to silent running after completing the dive). My biggest concern was the ongoing susceptibility to air attacks, which seems totally unreasonable. As a result this led me to adopt the battleship values as they offered the greatest AD, but I was still not truly satisfied.

To try and find a fix, I applied the camo trait to deep mode in the hope it would make them harder to spot (much like a minefield), but they still seem to be absorbing too much air damage. Not really sure where to go from here, but your suggestion of 99 has peaked my interest, so I think I'll be testing it soon.

Even with these compromises I think it will make the Battle of Atlantic more interesting.

Agreed. Looking back on it now, the whole idea of having a sub confined to a single mode (like any other naval vessel) seems a bit surreal. I realize PzC was designed primarily as a land combat simulator, but I do think there's room for a little more realism whilst trying to make other areas of the game more fun. It's probably my Silent Hunter background talking, but for me, not having multi-purpose subs is too much of a letdown.

I also added some new movement sounds to replace the generic 'naval' movement sound, I took the samples from bebro's IJA campaign (I think they originate from VPaulus' sound redux mod, though).

Great. They could certainly use an upgrade.

But, I have to rethink Allied counter measures as the U-boats increased capabilites would make the exisiting scenario unbalanced, so probably there will be a few more AI destroyers. I might also add Allied corvettes and frigates.

Whatever it takes. Not looking for an Axis edge, just more realism/fun.

Uhu wrote:
I made several big errors in a line at the defense of Tunis and so the city was captured. After that, hell broke out! Hordes of almost invincible Allied aircraft swarmed the skies and casualties went extrem high. So, if you loose Tunis, do not count with the chance of retaking it and do not count with a possible DV, or maybe even an MV...

That horde represents the 15th USAAF which was almost as strong as the 8th Air Force based in England. It was enormously strenghtened after the Allied capture of Tunisia. Historically after the fall of North Africa, the Germans could only slow down the Allied advance in the Med whereas in other fronts they could still launch limited counter offensives until the very end e.g. Kursk, Ardennes, Lake Balaton, etc. So I think it is good as it is. If the player wants to hold the Med he has to keep a foothold in Africa, whatever it takes.

But, I have to rethink Allied counter measures as the U-boats increased capabilites would make the exisiting scenario unbalanced, so probably there will be a few more AI destroyers. I might also add Allied corvettes and frigates.


iceFlame wrote:
Whatever it takes. Not looking for an Axis edge, just more realism/fun.

On a second thought, especially with the reduced GD, it may not unbalance the game as much as I first thought. After some more testing I decided to reduce the GD of the submerged mode as well: now in this 'middle' mode U-boats have just about the same stats as they have in the vanilla game, save for the reduced speed. This would compensate for the survival advantage provided by the dived mode. And the higher GD and AD in dived mode is also compensated by the fact that in order to reach their area of operations on time U-boats have to travel on the surface, risking easy detection and taking heavy damage or even complete destruction. As an added extra, as in this mod Allied aircraft are regularily patroling the French coastal area, crossing the Biscay Bay on the surface is especially risky, so, just like historically, it is probably better to cross it submerged and using the 'Piening Route' also becomes an option. Two thumbs up - now we are getting somewhere!

Known issues so far:
- since now U-boats are in the recon class when in surfaced mode they can be repaired (reinforced) in one turn in port unlike other naval units. I prefered the slower repair as I found it more realistic - they say that historically at any given time 1/3 of the U-boats were on their way to or from their area of operations, 1/3 were under repair/replenishment in port and only 1/3 were patroling their designated area.
- for the same reason surfaced U-boats have recon movement by default, which I think is not appropriate in this case. (Or maybe it is? Let me know if you think so.) Luckily it can be removed by adding the 'recon' trait to the traits coloumn
- the AI does not seem to use it very effectively, i.e. it rarely changes mode. Thus I decided to place AI subs in the middle submerged mode, as it provides the best all-around performance. Further testing will show how they perform.

Announcement: I have finished the mod in Ultra-Hard mode.
With Rommel difficulty and without bonus-prestige (Convoy, capturing Malta, England, Moscow, North Africa, Leningrad). That means minus many thousand prestiges... It is really hard, but it can be done. One trick is, for example, that you minimize the buying of Fw 190A-s. I bough this time only 3 of them and of course it was really difficult, especially in England to counter the Spit's and P-47's, but with a lot of AA gun the situation is manageable.
Now, I will take time to sleep and relax. After that I will start to make a proper AA with pics and a strategic guide.

@McGuba: I just wanted to go back and comment on the 99 AD suggestion before replying to your new post.

After further testing, I've opted to go with a value of 29 so as not to totally preclude the possibility of air damage. Naturally the idea is to insulate the deep boats from air attack, much as they were in real life, however I feel as though we should also account for the possibility of being 'caught' in the dive prior to getting deep.

In other words, if the U-boat started the turn in deep mode, then I would have no issue with it being virtually impregnable to air strikes (e.g. 99). On the other hand, if it has just been switched to deep mode, then (to allow for the non-turn based reality of simultaneous initiative), I think some degree of vulnerability should be maintained.

Obviously this can't be modeled in the PzC engine, but to try and accommodate both sides of the coin, I would opt for a lower figure (such as 29) which IMO fits better with the other AD values already in the vanilla game.

McGuba wrote:On a second thought, especially with the reduced GD, it may not unbalance the game as much as I first thought. After some more testing I decided to reduce the GD of the submerged mode as well: now in this 'middle' mode U-boats have just about the same stats as they have in the vanilla game, save for the reduced speed. This would compensate for the survival advantage provided by the dived mode.

Interesting. I opted for a higher defense value for submerged mode mostly due to the loss of visual contact (which makes exact pinpointing a little trickier), plus the extra 20 meters of depth gives them a head start on getting deep and a slight amount of insulation from light enemy rounds.

That being said, I do note your observations come from additional testing, and I certainly trust your judgment, especially when it comes to maintaining the balance of your excellent mod.

And the higher GD and AD in dived mode is also compensated by the fact that in order to reach their area of operations on time U-boats have to travel on the surface, risking easy detection and taking heavy damage or even complete destruction. As an added extra, as in this mod Allied aircraft are regularily patroling the French coastal area, crossing the Biscay Bay on the surface is especially risky, so, just like historically, it is probably better to cross it submerged and using the 'Piening Route' also becomes an option. Two thumbs up - now we are getting somewhere!

Indeed. Exposure on the surface was both necessary and perilous. Especially to planes who could quickly move to attack before the boat had much time to respond after initial sighting. Submerged capability was still rather primitive, at least in terms of prolonged voyages, as the boats had to surface frequently to recharge their batteries and replenish their air. Plus as you say, the reduction in speed made it far too time consuming to go from point A to point B. (Unless of course they both happened to be nearby).

Known issues so far:
- since now U-boats are in the recon class when in surfaced mode they can be repaired (reinforced) in one turn in port unlike other naval units. I prefered the slower repair as I found it more realistic - they say that historically at any given time 1/3 of the U-boats were on their way to or from their area of operations, 1/3 were under repair/replenishment in port and only 1/3 were patroling their designated area.

- for the same reason surfaced U-boats have recon movement by default, which I think is not appropriate in this case. (Or maybe it is? Let me know if you think so.) Luckily it can be removed by adding the 'recon' trait to the traits coloumn

Yeah, not a big fan of the quick repair, but I do like the phased movement aspect as I think it fits nicely with the stealth/multi-role capability of the boats. As a result, I'm hesitant to remove it. IMO it's another necessary compromise due to the limits of the current game engine.

- the AI does not seem to use it very effectively, i.e. it rarely changes mode. Thus I decided to place AI subs in the middle submerged mode, as it provides the best all-around performance. Further testing will show how they perform.

Hmmm... Sorry to hear this... From your earlier testing it sounded as though the AI was utilizing the modes fairly well. Still, if this is where we are, then I agree with your decision to default AI subs as submerged, as even this would be a vast improvement over the stock condition.

After further testing, I've opted to go with a value of 29 so as not to totally preclude the possibility of air damage.

Ah, sure, there is some thruth in that reasoning as well.

Interesting. I opted for a higher defense value for submerged mode mostly due to the loss of visual contact (which makes exact pinpointing a little trickier), plus the extra 20 meters of depth gives them a head start on getting deep and a slight amount of insulation from light enemy rounds.

Yeah, maybe it could be a bith higher than it was in vanilla. Just do not want to make U-boats way too good, as they were not.

Yeah, not a big fan of the quick repair, but I do like the phased movement aspect as I think it fits nicely with the stealth/multi-role capability of the boats.

Again, I fear that it would make human controlled subs a bit too good: with recon move they can attack an enemy spotted by another friendly unit (e.g. Condor) and then retreat without suffering any damage. And the AI would never use such recon movement, so it is really unbalanced against the AI, but not so much against another human player. On the other hand, if it attacks on the surface, it has to end its turn on the surface as well, making it very vulnerable to attacks if spotted by the enemy. Has to be tested, anyway...

- the AI does not seem to use it very effectively, i.e. it rarely changes mode.

Hmmm... Sorry to hear this... From your earlier testing it sounded as though the AI was utilizing the modes fairly well.

Yeah, disappointing, but I just started testing it with this mod, so it may change, and hopefully, it will. Basically, it is a major change from the vanilla rules, and there are many aspects which has to be tested and taken to consideration.


EDIT: Oh, I forgot to congratulate Uhu (again) for his success here as well. I think now he might know more about the inner working of this mod than me which is kinda sad.
Ah, just kidding, really.
It is great that he did not give up and beat the mod at the hardest possible setting.
And now I have to try to do the same...

The only problem is someone always come up with some idea how to make the mod even better, so I rarely have time to play, haha.

You share the problem with me - I still haven't played a full game of Kaiserschlacht in campaign mode, only as individual scenarios so I can test them.

Yay! I'm Now An Elite Panzer!

- BNC

I think it is a good idea to test something at least once before you release it to the public. The more you test it, the more polished it will be in the end.

I just made another playtest of this mod, as I wanted to see if I can achieve a total victory like Uhu did. I did it on General, as I wanted to have a bit more relaxed gameplay than playing on Rommel, which would be too frustrating for me, I guess. Even then, it was very hard, and I almost gave up halfway, but finally I made it somehow. It needs careful planning and attention to the smallest detail. Changing history is not an easy task after all...

This scenario seems to be VERY detailed indeed. Maybe a little too...

~Ulisses Montagna

Wellingham wrote:This scenario seems to be VERY detailed indeed. Maybe a little too...

~Ulisses Montagna

If it didn't have the many-hundred new units, I might actually have been able to play this before thinking up another good idea to use against it in the mod war!

McGuba wrote:I think it is a good idea to test something at least once before you release it to the public. The more you test it, the more polished it will be in the end.

I just made another playtest of this mod, as I wanted to see if I can achieve a total victory like Uhu did. I did it on General, as I wanted to have a bit more relaxed gameplay than playing on Rommel, which would be too frustrating for me, I guess. Even then, it was very hard, and I almost gave up halfway, but finally I made it somehow. It needs careful planning and attention to the smallest detail. Changing history is not an easy task after all...

I did the testing in single-scenario form, to test if each scenario is beatable (somehow Mons18 is!), then I release. If any notable problems are found, they will make it to Kaiserschlacht v1.1 (if that ever happens - GC14 is the more likely 1.1)

- BNC