Slitherine

JimmyC wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2026 3:34 am Does JG1 ever go to full strength? Im on turn 15 now and still doesnt let me go above 5 strength.

I think I read somewhere (I don't remember where) that the str. increases on turn 13.
But for me, it also increased by 16.

Locarnus wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2026 2:56 pm Curious about the utility of a 5 strength fighter unit.
Isn't it too dangerous to use it in that state?

I think this was done so that it couldn't be used as a combat-ready unit, but only as a reserve unit in the rear.

JimmyC wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2026 11:39 pm I did the conversion from strat bomber to fighter for around 3 or 4 aircraft.
The first one that came out on turn 16 had strength 15for some reason? Thereafter, the remaining fighters came out at strength 10 each turn. Not that im complaining, but i guess the strength 15 one is a bug.

I haven't encountered this myself.
I play the Realistic+ scenario.

JimmyC wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2026 11:39 pm I did the conversion from strat bomber to fighter for around 3 or 4 aircraft.
The first one that came out on turn 16 had strength 15for some reason? Thereafter, the remaining fighters came out at strength 10 each turn. Not that im complaining, but i guess the strength 15 one is a bug.

Unfortunately it is indeed a bug. I have created BE v2.5.1 to fix this and a few other minor changes.

As for your ongoing game, I would recommend using a cheat to reduce the strength of that fighter unit to 10.


Changes in v2.5.1

- A small bugfix with the first bomber to fighter unit retraining potentially not working as intended
- Some other minor changes like extra message in Poland scenario warning the player not to give elite replacements to auxiliary units in the early war scenarios, Stirling and Halifax bombers available for upgrade later (in multiplayer Allied side), additional Allied Wellington bomber added to Norway scenario

Here is the full mod file:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/arrkhp9i ... 48t7e&dl=0

The first page of this topic is also updated with the new zip. The above is the full mod install, but I have uploaded a smaller file as well, for those who have already downloaded and installed v2.5. This smaller zip only contains the update from BE 2.5 to BE 2.5.1 and should be copied over the existing 2.5 install:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/upo1sl09 ... ej08e&dl=0

But of course removing BE 2.5 with GME and then adding BE 2.5.1 full instead is also fine.

Intenso82 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2026 2:51 pm I think this was done so that it couldn't be used as a combat-ready unit, but only as a reserve unit in the rear.

Yes, JG 1 was understrength in 1941 with only one active Group, the rest of Groups were only added in early 1942, when it became a full strength Jagdgeschwader (figther wing). So normally it should not be moved to the frontline, but can be useful in intercepting unescorted Allied bomber units which try to attack the German cities in 1941.

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2026 6:15 pm Has anyone ever tried reaching Baku through the Mediterranean Sea? I know about various attempts through the Black Sea.
Also General Werner's naval invasions into Syria.

I wonder what would be the fastest route.

I don't know, probably nobody has tried it like that. I guess because it looks like shorter and easier to reach it via Rostov. But it might be possible to capture and hold the Rostov - Astrakhan line with a somewhat smaller force and then just make a defense there while transferring some extra units to North Africa and then use these extra units to break through at Alamein and then reach Baku from the south.

Or maybe even better to only reach the Donets river line and make a stand there to bleed the 1942/43 Soviet winter offensive, using the cities on the Donets as strongpoints, while reaching Baku from the south with the reinforced Afrika Korps. Such a defensive stance at the Donets would require less mobile units which would allow sending more tanks to Africa. And then in 1943 move forward from the Donets to capture Stalingrad and Astrakhan and whatever is left. Who knows, maybe even safer than the "traditional" approach.

I think the key is to capture the Nile delta fast enough. Once that's done, the new railway lines in the Middle East can be used to constantly upgrade the tanks of the Afrika Korps which was not possible in the earlier versions due to the lack of railways in the area.

Im up to around turn 27 now. My plan was to close the various pockets before retreating back to the start lines for the onset of winter. I then advanced on a broad front in the East. I also transferred some forces to North Africa and am attempting to break through the El Alamein defenses before the arrival of significant enemy reinforcements.

Some screenshots of my progress from turn 22:

Is Nebelwerfer now no longer in series? So you cant upgrade them anymore other than paying full cost?

JimmyC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 9:58 am Is Nebelwerfer now no longer in series? So you cant upgrade them anymore other than paying full cost?

It looks like they are not. I do not remember why it is like that, I think I just wanted to have more unit variety: if the Nebels were in the same upgrade family then players would just upgrade to the bigger for cheap, but in reality the smaller 15 cm caliber was by far the most numerous and most used for most of the war. If they are not in the same upgrade family, then it is more likely that players would just keep the 15 cm one and purchase an additional 21 or 30 cm or both. The heavier ones only started to become more numerous from 1943-44, at least based on the ammunition expended.

Production numbers:
15 cm Nebelwerfer 41: 5283
21 cm Nebelwerfer 42: 2626 (or just about 1500 according to another source, probably the larger number includes the ones used by the Luftwaffe on bomber destroyer planes)
30 cm Nebelwerfer 42: 954

Ammo expenditure:
As we can see, the ammo expenditure of the 21 and 30 cm types were negligible compared to the 15 cm one in 1942, and even in 1943 for the most part. The larger caliber ones only became more significant in 1944, and even in that year the 15 cm types fired like 10 times more rockets, and the larger calibers only started to come close by ammo weight (since these fired a far heavier shell).

Some screenshots of my progress from turn 22:

Nice!

Now I am curious, do people buy lots of arty in BE?

How long does it take for oil fields to repair? I havent with the new mod yet, but I have in the last update prior to this one waited over ten turns and ships were still hamstrung in movement.

McGuba wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:12 pm

JimmyC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 9:58 am Is Nebelwerfer now no longer in series? So you cant upgrade them anymore other than paying full cost?

It looks like they are not. I do not remember why it is like that, I think I just wanted to have more unit variety: if the Nebels were in the same upgrade family then players would just upgrade to the bigger for cheap, but in reality the smaller 15 cm caliber was by far the most numerous and most used for most of the war. If they are not in the same upgrade family, then it is more likely that players would just keep the 15 cm one and purchase an additional 21 or 30 cm or both. The heavier ones only started to become more numerous from 1943-44, at least based on the ammunition expended.

Production numbers:
15 cm Nebelwerfer 41: 5283
21 cm Nebelwerfer 42: 2626 (or just about 1500 according to another source, probably the larger number includes the ones used by the Luftwaffe on bomber destroyer planes)
30 cm Nebelwerfer 42: 954

Ammo expenditure:

nebel.jpg

As we can see, the ammo expenditure of the 21 and 30 cm types were negligible compared to the 15 cm one in 1942, and even in 1943 for the most part. The larger caliber ones only became more significant in 1944, and even in that year the 15 cm types fired like 10 times more rockets, and the larger calibers only started to come close by ammo weight (since these fired a far heavier shell).

Well understood and makes some sense considering ammo usage. Also, other artillery types also are not in the same series, so why should Nebelwerfer be the exception. However, would you consider putting the Panzerwerfer and 15cm Nebelwerfer in the same series, as it seems that Panzerwerfer is just the 15cm Nebelwerfer mounted on a halftrack?

On an unrelated point, Panzer IIIL and IIIM are exactly the same (cost, stats, everything). So it may be worth either removing the IIIM or changing it somehow.

The progress is going well, but the Soviets have massed their forces in the defense of Moscow and its become a bit of a grind.

Kiev/Kharkov/Belgorod axis is more lightly defended and we make better progress here. We intend to hold the line at the Don River as Moscow is the key focus.

At the moment we rule the skies, which really helps push things forward, as i am somewhat lacking in artillery, having transferred several artillery units to North Africa.

Meanwhile, a combined German/Finnish force makes a push towards Archangelsk.

JimmyC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 9:58 am Is Nebelwerfer now no longer in series? So you cant upgrade them anymore other than paying full cost?

Ha, I ran into that too when I sent the unit in for an upgrade

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 6:28 pm Now I am curious, do people buy lots of arty in BE?

I had two free slots available, so I bought 2 arty.

I’m also on turn 27.
I used the strategy of evacuating from North Africa.
Malta and Moscow have been captured.
Now the next target is Leningrad.
There’s also an advance into the Caucasus.

I plan to meet the Red Army’s advance along the Donets River (the classic move).
Advance to the river in the Moscow Triangle area and switch to defense there as well.

Usually, I captured Arkhangelsk via Moscow. It was very long and painful.
This time, I’ll try to do it from the Finnish side, after capturing Leningrad.

On the other fronts.
In the summer in the West, I ran into 5–6 Allied bombers and immediately lost 3 hexes -450 prestige points, that really hurt))

In the North Atlantic, things had been going very well up to that point, with no losses, but it seems the golden age of submarines is coming to an end.

I lost all the cities in Africa, Including Tripoli and now I’m planning a raid war with combined air and airborne forces to retake the flags and earn prestige.

Meanwhile, in Fatherland, some of the units all light tank and part of the recon unit are resting, awaiting upgrades.

This is all very interesting, keep it going guys!

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 6:28 pm Now I am curious, do people buy lots of arty in BE?

Intenso82 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 1:14 pm I had two free slots available, so I bought 2 arty.

JimmyC wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 12:12 am At the moment we rule the skies, which really helps push things forward, as i am somewhat lacking in artillery, having transferred several artillery units to North Africa.

So perhaps JimmyC might as well buy one or two as well, if prestige/core slots allow?
But which one?
- Another 15cm Nebel, or a 21cm one? The 21 cm has a bigger punch but also 1 less ammo and 1 less rate of fire, for 10% higher price... I think that's a tough choice.
- Or perhaps another good-old 10.5cm leFH, for about the same price but with more ammo and more range, albeit with modest damage?
- Or a 15cm sFH, which has good range, good damage, good ammo supply, but much more expensive than any of the above?
- Or perhaps one of the mobile platforms?

So many choices... and this is only the artillery available in that specific turn. Later there will be even more options. I remember in one of my earlier multiplayer matches I was thinking for like an hour on what unit to purchase when I had a chance. Of course it all depends on the actual situation, strategy, prestige situation and priorities. And yet it can be really hard to make the "right" decision.

JimmyC wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 12:07 am However, would you consider putting the Panzerwerfer and 15cm Nebelwerfer in the same series, as it seems that Panzerwerfer is just the 15cm Nebelwerfer mounted on a halftrack?

Yes, that would probably make sense. But at the same time it would also reduce the number of Nebelwerfers in the core since once the Panzerwerfer becomes available all such 15cm Nebels would be upgraded to it. When in reality the towed 15cm Nebels were used in largest numbers in 1944-45. So not too sure. However, the Panzerwerfer currently has less ammo, so it may not be a good deal.

On an unrelated point, Panzer IIIL and IIIM are exactly the same (cost, stats, everything). So it may be worth either removing the IIIM or changing it somehow.

In reality the Pz.IIIL and M were almost identical, the M had an improved fording equipment, but that should not be a factor in this game. I would not want to remove it, though. I think it has a later version with better close defense or something, when it gets the schurzen side armour.

slowgtp wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 11:15 pm How long does it take for oil fields to repair? I havent with the new mod yet, but I have in the last update prior to this one waited over ten turns and ships were still hamstrung in movement.

12 turns in "Realistic +" and multiplayer versions of the mod. Not sure right now about the "Realistic" difficulty, maybe no waiting time in that one, or maybe just 6 turns? And surely no waiting time in the easiest "Moderate" version.

McGuba wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:12 pm

JimmyC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 9:58 am Is Nebelwerfer now no longer in series? So you cant upgrade them anymore other than paying full cost?

It looks like they are not. I do not remember why it is like that, I think I just wanted to have more unit variety: if the Nebels were in the same upgrade family then players would just upgrade to the bigger for cheap, but in reality the smaller 15 cm caliber was by far the most numerous and most used for most of the war. If they are not in the same upgrade family, then it is more likely that players would just keep the 15 cm one and purchase an additional 21 or 30 cm or both. The heavier ones only started to become more numerous from 1943-44, at least based on the ammunition expended.

Production numbers:
15 cm Nebelwerfer 41: 5283
21 cm Nebelwerfer 42: 2626 (or just about 1500 according to another source, probably the larger number includes the ones used by the Luftwaffe on bomber destroyer planes)
30 cm Nebelwerfer 42: 954

Ammo expenditure:

nebel.jpg

As we can see, the ammo expenditure of the 21 and 30 cm types were negligible compared to the 15 cm one in 1942, and even in 1943 for the most part. The larger caliber ones only became more significant in 1944, and even in that year the 15 cm types fired like 10 times more rockets, and the larger calibers only started to come close by ammo weight (since these fired a far heavier shell).

I gave the 15cm Nebelwerfer 41 (as well as the 12cm Granatwerfer 42) a movement of 2, with leg movement type. So same movement as Grenadiere and Pioniere infantry. That gave them a tactical niche compared to the bigger variants.
Especially when using them for defensive fire and with horse transports, in order to be extra cheap and unaffected by the fuel issues.

Afair the mobility was also one of the reasons for the 3.7cm Pak being favored for so long (in addition to the whole ammo standardization with the early Panzer III and so on).
I guess for the morale and suppression effect the historical difference between the rocket launchers was limited anyway.

Quite interesting topic!

Well, in my playthrough buying any arty has only a chance at the later stages of the war, when free slots emerges.
Or in the saved versions.
I usually buy 10,5 cm towed with soft halftrack, later hard halftrack. Even later Wespe as it is a good compromise between price and ammo capacity. Also when the StuH'42 arrives it is a very valuable equipment as it can be used also as a "tank" and has strong armor. When possibility arises than upgrade the Hungarian AT gun to Zrínyi II, because it has a hero and...anyway!
At a late stage, when prestige is more abundant and Britain/Baku/Middle ist is not yet invaded, maybe a 4-range 10,5 cm could be useful. But the strength 7 is a bit avoidant factor for buying it.

I never bought rocket artillery beyond the default given one: the lower range and the lower ammo capacity moved me away from buying. But I'm more and more interested reading that you buy several ones! Is it really so much better against soft targets that lowers the other weakening factors (range, ammo)?

I think, the other subtopic with arty could be also interesting - transport upgrades for them:
- Upgrade the 15cm arty to proper 6-move halftrack for a pile of money or let it have the 3-move Russian mover?
- Upgrade all horse drawn 10,5 cm to 4-move Maultier (cheaper), or just use it with horses? Also if second, than I can use them non-stop, no need to send them back.
- Upgrade the 10,5 cm advanced arty to 6-move halftrack for a lot of money, or wait until the cheaper hard halftracks arrive?

McGuba wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 7:10 pm
So perhaps JimmyC might as well buy one or two as well, if prestige/core slots allow?
But which one?
- Another 15cm Nebel, or a 21cm one? The 21 cm has a bigger punch but also 1 less ammo and 1 less rate of fire, for 10% higher price... I think that's a tough choice.
- Or perhaps another good-old 10.5cm leFH, for about the same price but with more ammo and more range, albeit with modest damage?
- Or a 15cm sFH, which has good range, good damage, good ammo supply, but much more expensive than any of the above?
- Or perhaps one of the mobile platforms?

So many choices... and this is only the artillery available in that specific turn. Later there will be even more options. I remember in one of my earlier multiplayer matches I was thinking for like an hour on what unit to purchase when I had a chance. Of course it all depends on the actual situation, strategy, prestige situation and priorities. And yet it can be really hard to make the "right" decision.

Hmm, I just looked the France scenario and looked for the Fallschirmjägers and asked me: what is preventing the player to conquer South Britain??

In North Africa our forces managed to break through the flank of the defenders at El Alamein, but were then forced back as reinforcements arrived from the Suez.

Further to the west and several months later, a separate Axis force drove into and occupied Tunis and Kasserine Pass and are ready to hold off the predominantly US forces attacking from Algeria.

In early 1943 on the Eastern front, our forces made their final push towards Moscow, grinding down the defenders and advancing to within artillery range of the city. However, we were forced to pull back and redeploy the majority of our armor as Army Group South were almost overwhelmed by Russian counterattacks from the North East. We are trying to hold them back along the Donets and Don Rivers, however they offer little natural barrier as both rivers are frozen. This has slowed down our advance of Moscow as we try to beat back the Russian attacks.

Simultaneously, the Russian forces surged across the Don River and attacked across a wide area in the Orel/Kursk/Belgorod front. Although we have significant forces massed in this area, the sheer volume of Russian armor threatens to overwhelm us. All available armor and AT is now being rushed to the area and orders given that Kursk must be held at all costs.

Locarnus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 9:34 pm I gave the 15cm Nebelwerfer 41 (as well as the 12cm Granatwerfer 42) a movement of 2, with leg movement type. So same movement as Grenadiere and Pioniere infantry. That gave them a tactical niche compared to the bigger variants.

The empty weight of the 15cm and 21cm Nebel were almost the same (510 vs. 550 kg). Thus if the 15cm can move 2, then the 21cm should be able to do the same. But in that case again, there's no more tactical niche.

Uhu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2026 9:23 am At a late stage, when prestige is more abundant and Britain/Baku/Middle ist is not yet invaded, maybe a 4-range 10,5 cm could be useful. But the strength 7 is a bit avoidant factor for buying it.

I think now there is a 10 strength version of that 4 range gun available for purchase from May 1944.

Uhu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2026 9:49 am Hmm, I just looked the France scenario and looked for the Fallschirmjägers and asked me: what is preventing the player to conquer South Britain??

Good question.
Perhaps it should be better defended.

I think General Werner paired two Wurfrahmen once to drive towards Moscow...

McGuba wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 7:10 pm 12 turns in "Realistic +" and multiplayer versions of the mod. Not sure right now about the "Realistic" difficulty, maybe no waiting time in that one, or maybe just 6 turns? And surely no waiting time in the easiest "Moderate" version.

Thanks for the reply. In my kind, respectful opinion, I think that 6-8 turns would be more optimal. From multiple playthroughs, it just seems to me that 12 turns is much too long for the sake of the scenario. I've captured them by the end of 42 and spent a long time waiting to the point that the fleets become pretty much pointless. I believe it would spice things up a bit, as well as give incentive for quicker capture. Thanks!