Slitherine

76mm wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:54 pm

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:48 pm Warbands can still defend, but there will be a 30% chance of an anarchy charge if you do not fully move a warband unit and an enemy unit remains in charge range at the end of a turn.

I think planning to defend where there is a 30% chance of each of your warbands anarchy charging would be...futile.

you could use a skirmisher screen, and they will only anarchy attack enemies in charge range, so the enemy would have to walk right up to your defensive position anyway. For better or for worse, but I think it's worth testing either way, anarchy changes + command changes + maybe some deep impact poa changes could really change the dynamic of warband armies and make for some more diverse gameplay and tactics styles.

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:48 pm

76mm wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:22 pmI don't think it is realistic to assume that all warbands will be attacking all the time.

Warbands can still defend, but there will be a 30% chance of an anarchy charge if you do not fully move a warband unit and an enemy unit remains in charge range at the end of a turn. A warband unit can still defend a steep hill with difficult slopes if the army is able to keep enemy skirmishers away -with chariots or cavalry, perhaps.

to be clear, a unit anarchy tests if it moves at all, so if you move it one square, but within charge range of the enemy, it will test (they don't currently test on turns alone, but I might add that later)

might also keep the bit where if you are way better off defending than attacking (ie big height advantage) then anarchy charge chances go way down. It is already implemented and changing the value is simple. Could be a good way to make these changes more palatable

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:50 pm

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 2:15 pm My question has never been : "why should warbands be subject to anarchy charges ?"
but : "why should 99% of the Roman units be exempted from them ?"

You have made that 99% figure up.

Pete... I had developed a dozen of arguments you didn't even bother answering.
And you focus on a %age in one post that obviously only means that most of the Roman armies would be exempted ? (1)
Which allows you not to even answer about the content of that very question while contradicting me only on the form...

Too bad. Because it was just an harmless discussion about History and gameplay.
I feel like you don't like my posts about your mods so I stop right away.


_________________________

(1) Of course it is not 99%! Everybody figured it out what I meant : "a lot".
I read your ideas about Anarchy charges : Average Roman troops are on low and Superior warbands are on high, unless it recently changed.

So let's calculate :

a) Rome 105-25 BC (medium Force) :
Elite Legionaries : 3 units
Superior Legionaries : 7
Average troops : 11
Raw troops : 3

21 Roman troops on low out of 24, that is 87,5%. I was not far off, after all !!!

2) Gallic
Superior Warband : 2
Average Warband : 23
Untrained troops : 2

100% Gallic troops on high.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:53 pm

76mm wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:22 pm

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 1:27 pm I am not so sure about this. The units that will anarchy in the mod are only the ones that are not fully moved during a players turn and which remain in charge range of the enemy at the end of the turn. Good players should experience very little indiscipline in their army even if a lot of their units have a relatively high anarchy rating.

Frankly I don't play as warbands-heavy armies very often, although many of the armies I use contain significant numbers of warbands. I guess I don't consider myself a good player, but it is not uncommon for me to have one wing of my line on defense while the other attacks, or in some cases, for the whole line of foot to remain on defense while I wait for the cav fight on the wings to conclude. I don't think it is realistic to assume that all warbands will be attacking all the time.

I think I'd like to look at doing a few adjustments to warbands in general (not as much of an overhaul as the pikemod, just a few poa changes maybe), because, in addition to you, a lot of other players in competitive games tend to not like using them (often avoiding using them even when it's just a few available in a larger list, and almost never taking warband armies) because they just kind of suck for cost. Maybe the anarchy changes combined with some deep impact poa changes could make for a more distinct and interesting and even competitive warband army style of play. I kind of talked about that earlier, maybe in a different thread, i can't keep track anymore.

with a skirmisher screen you can help prevent warbands from anarchy charging

I like taking one or two Warband units to use as a reserve with Pike lines (and their push backs one way or the other) as their pursuit ability can lead to cavalry like breakups of engaged lines. Very satisfying when it happens.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:58 pm

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:50 pm

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 2:15 pm My question has never been : "why should warbands be subject to anarchy charges ?"
but : "why should 99% of the Roman units be exempted from them ?"

You have made that 99% figure up.

Pete... I had developed a dozen of arguments you didn't even bother answering.
And you focus on a %age in one post that obviously only means that most of the Roman armies would be exempted ? (1)
Which allows you not to even answer about the content of that very question while contradicting me only on the form...

Too bad. Because it was just an harmless discussion about History and gameplay.
I feel like you don't like my posts about your mods so I stop right away.


_________________________

(1) Of course it is not 99%! Everybody figured it out what I meant : "a lot".
I read your ideas about Anarchy charges : Average Roman troops are on low and Superior warbands are on high, unless it recently changed.

So let's calculate :

a) Rome 105-25 BC (medium Force) :
Elite Legionaries : 3 units
Superior Legionaries : 7
Average troops : 11
Raw troops : 3

21 Roman troops on low out of 24, that is 87,5%. I was not far off, after all !!!

2) Gallic
Superior Warband : 2
Average Warband : 23
Untrained troops : 2

100% Gallic troops on high.

it's just a mod, and the values so far are tentative. It will remain in a test phase for some while before we even post a link to download it. It sounds like you don't like the idea of adding anarchy charges at all, and think that the ill discipline of warbands is already accounted for elsewhere, and that anarchy charging is superfluous at best and bad at worst. That's fine. No mod will please everybody, or even a majority of people. No one will make you play it.

There are some players (about 2/3 of those polled) who would like to test out an anarchy mod. We will make the mod for them.

If you do not want to try out an anarchy mod, then don't. If you want to add to the discussion about features of the anarchy mod that you would or would not like to see, then great. But, if you just don't want the mod to exist, then why bother posting?

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:01 pm

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:53 pm

76mm wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:22 pm
Frankly I don't play as warbands-heavy armies very often, although many of the armies I use contain significant numbers of warbands. I guess I don't consider myself a good player, but it is not uncommon for me to have one wing of my line on defense while the other attacks, or in some cases, for the whole line of foot to remain on defense while I wait for the cav fight on the wings to conclude. I don't think it is realistic to assume that all warbands will be attacking all the time.

I think I'd like to look at doing a few adjustments to warbands in general (not as much of an overhaul as the pikemod, just a few poa changes maybe), because, in addition to you, a lot of other players in competitive games tend to not like using them (often avoiding using them even when it's just a few available in a larger list, and almost never taking warband armies) because they just kind of suck for cost. Maybe the anarchy changes combined with some deep impact poa changes could make for a more distinct and interesting and even competitive warband army style of play. I kind of talked about that earlier, maybe in a different thread, i can't keep track anymore.

with a skirmisher screen you can help prevent warbands from anarchy charging

I like taking one or two Warband units to use as a reserve with Pike lines (and their push backs one way or the other) as their pursuit ability can lead to cavalry like breakups of engaged lines. Very satisfying when it happens.

this mod would be unlikely to affect that tactic because units held in reserve tend to be outside of charge range of the enemy and thus not subject to anarchy

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 pm

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:01 pm

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:53 pm

I think I'd like to look at doing a few adjustments to warbands in general (not as much of an overhaul as the pikemod, just a few poa changes maybe), because, in addition to you, a lot of other players in competitive games tend to not like using them (often avoiding using them even when it's just a few available in a larger list, and almost never taking warband armies) because they just kind of suck for cost. Maybe the anarchy changes combined with some deep impact poa changes could make for a more distinct and interesting and even competitive warband army style of play. I kind of talked about that earlier, maybe in a different thread, i can't keep track anymore.

with a skirmisher screen you can help prevent warbands from anarchy charging

I like taking one or two Warband units to use as a reserve with Pike lines (and their push backs one way or the other) as their pursuit ability can lead to cavalry like breakups of engaged lines. Very satisfying when it happens.

this mod would be unlikely to affect that tactic because units held in reserve tend to be outside of charge range of the enemy and thus not subject to anarchy

I was just stating that I already like Warband units, and I am looking forward to seeing how they interact with the Anarchy Mod. I think the extra uniqueness will be great, either for or against.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:55 pm

76mm wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:54 pm

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:48 pm Warbands can still defend, but there will be a 30% chance of an anarchy charge if you do not fully move a warband unit and an enemy unit remains in charge range at the end of a turn.

I think planning to defend where there is a 30% chance of each of your warbands anarchy charging would be...futile.

you could use a skirmisher screen, and they will only anarchy attack enemies in charge range, so the enemy would have to walk right up to your defensive position anyway. For better or for worse, but I think it's worth testing either way, anarchy changes + command changes + maybe some deep impact poa changes could really change the dynamic of warband armies and make for some more diverse gameplay and tactics styles.

And the other thing to say is that there is more than one type of tactic for defending. You can have a very passive defence, which is sometimes referred to as "turtling", where you just take up a position and just stay there. If you have skirmisher superiority you can still do that, but if you do not then it is much more dangerous. On the other hand you can have a very active defence, which may have a terrain feature at its centre, but where units are defending in a much more dynamic way. This can be a very strong form of defence if your army has a number of different troop types that enable you to fight on different terrain.

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:16 pm

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 pm

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:01 pm

I like taking one or two Warband units to use as a reserve with Pike lines (and their push backs one way or the other) as their pursuit ability can lead to cavalry like breakups of engaged lines. Very satisfying when it happens.

this mod would be unlikely to affect that tactic because units held in reserve tend to be outside of charge range of the enemy and thus not subject to anarchy

I was just stating that I already like Warband units, and I am looking forward to seeing how they interact with the Anarchy Mod. I think the extra uniqueness will be great, either for or against.

cool, perhaps we should start a new thread to discuss warband and/or warband in the context of this mod. What if warband were changed to:

1) have very high anarchy, such that defending with them was not that realistic
2) have a higher deep impact poa (maybe try +25, instead of current +10 which doesn't really seem enough to matter)
3) have some even greater impact poa when anarchy charging specifically? that might not be called for with number 2 above, but could be an interesting way to balance anarchy

so they are an army that can smash through opponents in a massive initial, chaotic charge if it succeeds, but are very vulnerable if it doesn't. Could also add some command and control differences.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 pm it's just a mod, and the values so far are tentative. It will remain in a test phase for some while before we even post a link to download it. It sounds like you don't like the idea of adding anarchy charges at all, and think that the ill discipline of warbands is already accounted for elsewhere, and that anarchy charging is superfluous at best and bad at worst. That's fine. No mod will please everybody, or even a majority of people. No one will make you play it.

There are some players (about 2/3 of those polled) who would like to test out an anarchy mod. We will make the mod for them.

If you do not want to try out an anarchy mod, then don't. If you want to add to the discussion about features of the anarchy mod that you would or would not like to see, then great. But, if you just don't want the mod to exist, then why bother posting?

I only raised an issue about history and gameplay because I like the idea of anarchic charges and I don't like stereotypes.
My previous posts were meant to be constructive.
You don't want to understand that ? Tant pis.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:25 pm
2) have a higher deep impact poa (maybe try +25, instead of current +10 which doesn't really seem enough to matter)

so they are an army that can smash through opponents in a massive initial, chaotic charge if it succeeds, but are very vulnerable if it doesn't. Could also add some command and control differences.

I think that there is a clear historical rationale for something like this in that some war band armies used the "boar's head" tactic to smash into an enemy formation to try and break it up. A +25 deep impact POA would be very well worth testing.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:25 pm

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:16 pm

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 pm

this mod would be unlikely to affect that tactic because units held in reserve tend to be outside of charge range of the enemy and thus not subject to anarchy

I was just stating that I already like Warband units, and I am looking forward to seeing how they interact with the Anarchy Mod. I think the extra uniqueness will be great, either for or against.

cool, perhaps we should start a new thread to discuss warband and/or warband in the context of this mod. What if warband were changed to:

1) have very high anarchy, such that defending with them was not that realistic
2) have a higher deep impact poa (maybe try +25, instead of current +10 which doesn't really seem enough to matter)
3) have some even greater impact poa when anarchy charging specifically? that might not be called for with number 2 above, but could be an interesting way to balance anarchy

so they are an army that can smash through opponents in a massive initial, chaotic charge if it succeeds, but are very vulnerable if it doesn't. Could also add some command and control differences.

Exactly in line with what I was saying in other threads. An Anarchy charge should get some POA bonus due to increased elan. There should be both a positive and negative aspect to Anarchy Charges, a player should select them with eyes wide open and understand the need to treat them according to their unique tendancies. This sounds fun and tactically challenging, a possible great addition.

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:38 pm

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:25 pm

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:16 pm

I was just stating that I already like Warband units, and I am looking forward to seeing how they interact with the Anarchy Mod. I think the extra uniqueness will be great, either for or against.

cool, perhaps we should start a new thread to discuss warband and/or warband in the context of this mod. What if warband were changed to:

1) have very high anarchy, such that defending with them was not that realistic
2) have a higher deep impact poa (maybe try +25, instead of current +10 which doesn't really seem enough to matter)
3) have some even greater impact poa when anarchy charging specifically? that might not be called for with number 2 above, but could be an interesting way to balance anarchy

so they are an army that can smash through opponents in a massive initial, chaotic charge if it succeeds, but are very vulnerable if it doesn't. Could also add some command and control differences.

Exactly in line with what I was saying in other threads. An Anarchy charge should get some POA bonus due to increased elan. There should be both a positive and negative aspect to Anarchy Charges, a player should select them with eyes wide open and understand the need to treat them according to their unique tendancies. This sounds fun and tactically challenging, a possible great addition.

will you start a new thread to discuss the issue of warbands and anarchy charges specifically? include in the op the above and whatever relevant info is needed for starting the discussion?

This is where we are with the anarchy bands for v1 at the moment. It is changing every day in light of our own research and poster's comments in this forum. Obviously the high, medium and low are relative values, rather than absolute ones.

Edited

High anarchy units
Light chariots with light spear
Warbands
Picked Warbands (loose order)
Beserkers
Falxmen
Picked Irish foot
Well-armed slaves
Poorly-armed slaves
Mob

---------------------------------

Medium anarchy units
Superior warbands
Any other impact foot troop type including Imitation Legionaries (but excluding Romans)
Mounted Lancers
Mounted spear/sword cavalry
Offensive spears (except shield wall, hirdsmen, huscarls, Varangian Guard)
Other heavy weapon infantry (except falxmen and huscarls)
Camelry
Heavy and Scythed chariots
Irregular light spear/sword infantry

-----------------------------------

Low anarchy units (10)
Regular light spear/sword infantry
Shield wall and well-equipped shield wall (offensive spears), hirdsmen, huscarls (spear and axe), Varangian Guard
Defensive spearmen
Pikes
Romans
Persian Immortals and Sparabara
Elephants

------------------------------------

Zero anarchy units (0)
Mounted archers
Foot archers
Foot Skirmishers
Light horse
Chariots just with bows
Naffatun

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:35 pm

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 pm it's just a mod, and the values so far are tentative. It will remain in a test phase for some while before we even post a link to download it. It sounds like you don't like the idea of adding anarchy charges at all, and think that the ill discipline of warbands is already accounted for elsewhere, and that anarchy charging is superfluous at best and bad at worst. That's fine. No mod will please everybody, or even a majority of people. No one will make you play it.

There are some players (about 2/3 of those polled) who would like to test out an anarchy mod. We will make the mod for them.

If you do not want to try out an anarchy mod, then don't. If you want to add to the discussion about features of the anarchy mod that you would or would not like to see, then great. But, if you just don't want the mod to exist, then why bother posting?

I only raised an issue about history and gameplay because I like the idea of anarchic charges and I don't like stereotypes.
My previous posts were meant to be constructive.
You don't want to understand that ? Tant pis.

Tant pis (pronounced ta(n) pee), is an everyday French idiomatic expression that literally means "so much worse." The phrase is often used as an exclamation that ranges from the mild "oh well" to the rude "tough," depending on how you articulate it in conversation.

Ok...whatever.

Not sure what stereotypes have to do with it. I don't think warbands preferred the boars head or other full on charge tactics as a stereotype only, but also in reality. At least the 'Warband' unit in game is a charge/impact oriented unit certainly. Anarchy would just be a continuation in that same direction.

Maybe the vanilla game is wrong to fill out Gallic armies with 'warbands,' and in reality charging armored swordsmen were a small elite of Gallic tribes, and really most of their armies should be defensive spearmen and slingers. Could be. But, vanilla has them as all charge/impact oriented warbands, and so if it is a stereotype to say that Gallic armies consisted primarily of charging impact foot, then Vanilla FOG2 is also indulging in the stereotype.

It doesn't seem like you like the idea of anarchic charges, but maybe a lot is lost in translation. Do you have some specific gameplay or stat change you would like to see included with the anarchy charge mod? Some specific chance to anarchy charge?

Medium anarchy units
Superior warbands
Any other impact foot troop type including Imitation Legionaries (but excluding Romans)
Mounted Lancers
Mounted spear/sword cavalry
Offensive spears (except shield wall, hirdsmen, huscarls, Varangian Guard)
Other heavy weapon infantry (except falxmen and huscarls)
Camelry
Heavy and Scythed chariots
Elephants
Irregular light spear/sword infantry
--------------------------------------------------------------

I am in the RBS camp that Elephants are a very "controlled" unit. Controlled vs disciplined, because they are not humans. I am not aware of Commanders losing control of Elephants prior to combat, plenty of reports of elephants rampaging after they were engaged though.

I think they should be in the low category.

Once engaged all bets are off, but I am not sure there is scripting for that - but it would be very realistic. Rampage after breaking would be wonderful, but not easy to execute.

will you start a new thread to discuss the issue of warbands and anarchy charges specifically? include in the op the above and whatever relevant info is needed for starting the discussion?
-----------------------------------------

I think any unit Anarchy charging should get a POA bonus for high elan. It should probably stay tied to the Anarchy prone list for a while at least.

The deep impact bonus for Warbands only is a different idea, but I don't know enough about that to start the discussion.

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:24 pm will you start a new thread to discuss the issue of warbands and anarchy charges specifically? include in the op the above and whatever relevant info is needed for starting the discussion?
-----------------------------------------

I think any unit Anarchy charging should get a POA bonus for high elan. It should probably stay tied to the Anarchy prone list for a while at least.

The deep impact bonus for Warbands only is a different idea, but I don't know enough about that to start the discussion.

i think deep impact is for any impact foot with 3+ rows, which I think right now is only warbands

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:20 pm Once engaged all bets are off, but I am not sure there is scripting for that - but it would be very realistic. Rampage after breaking would be wonderful, but not easy to execute.

would be a cool mod idea to put on the backburner (currently their greater ct check radius on routing is meant to account for this, but it would be neat to see them randomly charge whatever unit, enemy or not, on rampaging)

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:34 pm

desicat wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:20 pm Once engaged all bets are off, but I am not sure there is scripting for that - but it would be very realistic. Rampage after breaking would be wonderful, but not easy to execute.

would be a cool mod idea to put on the backburner (currently their greater ct check radius on routing is meant to account for this, but it would be neat to see them randomly charge whatever unit, enemy or not, on rampaging)

I think Pict Spearmen and some Levy's and Mobs have 4 rows as well.