Slitherine

As my opponent found out yesterday, the only thing that Knights really fear in combat is the trusty Elephant.

Ethan, all very clearly said except how do you mean

ethan wrote:an army that can dice out of trouble.

I'm assuming that he means that if his army can dice well enough and score enough hits then the matchups will be irrelevant.

Rob

agorfein1 wrote:

philqw78 wrote:An army with no thought at all. Italian Condotta. Almost all Knights. But can be used to learn as they are drilled Knights.

I strongly disagree with this. The Condotta depend heavily on outmaneuvering and "wrong footing" the enemy with their drilled knights and LH. They will lose repeatedly if you just charge head on with them.

Furthermore, I think they are better when run with pikes, knights, and light horse as a combined arms force.

They don't depend on this if they take minimum of other troops and wall to wall Knights. They then depend upon having the right things stood in front of them. If you want the pikes and LH you are a bit more tactically astute.

Robert241167 wrote:I'm assuming that he means that if his army can dice well enough and score enough hits then the matchups will be irrelevant.

Rob

Sustained hot dice can almost always do the trick, so I think the point must be more subtle.

I was wondering if it meant a combination of POAs and quality (Superior, for example) that let it match or beat the enemy with dice around the center of their bell curve.

Take dice that cunningly only ever roll 7s ?

MikeK wrote:Ethan, all very clearly said except how do you mean

ethan wrote:an army that can dice out of trouble.

This is really back to avoiding very match-up sensitive troops. Look for troops that are not going to give up a lot of double PoAs. It is probably also an arguement against relying overly on clever shooty armies, if you get lucky you might kill one guy and drop someone's cohesion level by one. If you get really lucky with Spartans you can break a BG in one round of impact + melee.

For me it is just a corollary of relatively tough troops that are reasonably homongenous. Hopefully, the enemy will have to fight something tough somewhere. Spears and Heavy Weapons are the epitome of the troops types for this. If they get into melee they can win against most anything.

philqw78 wrote:

agorfein1 wrote:

philqw78 wrote:An army with no thought at all. Italian Condotta. Almost all Knights. But can be used to learn as they are drilled Knights.

I strongly disagree with this. The Condotta depend heavily on outmaneuvering and "wrong footing" the enemy with their drilled knights and LH. They will lose repeatedly if you just charge head on with them.

Furthermore, I think they are better when run with pikes, knights, and light horse as a combined arms force.

They don't depend on this if they take minimum of other troops and wall to wall Knights. They then depend upon having the right things stood in front of them. If you want the pikes and LH you are a bit more tactically astute.

If you want wall to wall knights you are better off taking any number of undrilled, superior, knight armies. The only reason to run drilled, average knights is for maneuvering. Running them wall to wall is a waste.

agorfein1 wrote:

philqw78 wrote:

agorfein1 wrote: I strongly disagree with this. The Condotta depend heavily on outmaneuvering and "wrong footing" the enemy with their drilled knights and LH. They will lose repeatedly if you just charge head on with them.

Furthermore, I think they are better when run with pikes, knights, and light horse as a combined arms force.

They don't depend on this if they take minimum of other troops and wall to wall Knights. They then depend upon having the right things stood in front of them. If you want the pikes and LH you are a bit more tactically astute.

If you want wall to wall knights you are better off taking any number of undrilled, superior, knight armies. The only reason to run drilled, average knights is for maneuvering. Running them wall to wall is a waste.

How about something like Later Teutonic Knights or Later Hungarians where you can have a wall of Superior Undrilled Knights plus some drilled knights to stick at the ends of the line for that inevitable "OMG how did those guys get onto my flank?" moment?

LambertSimnel wrote:

agorfein1 wrote:

philqw78 wrote: They don't depend on this if they take minimum of other troops and wall to wall Knights. They then depend upon having the right things stood in front of them. If you want the pikes and LH you are a bit more tactically astute.

If you want wall to wall knights you are better off taking any number of undrilled, superior, knight armies. The only reason to run drilled, average knights is for maneuvering. Running them wall to wall is a waste.

How about something like Later Teutonic Knights or Later Hungarians where you can have a wall of Superior Undrilled Knights plus some drilled knights to stick at the ends of the line for that inevitable "OMG how did those guys get onto my flank?" moment?

I would suggest using a Heavy foot spear or heavy weapon force. The trouble with knights is that against a good player your knights will spend all their time chasing either LH or Cavalry around the table.
With foot impact foot you can better control them until you want them to charge.
Just a thought mind you

I don't really see why there is any discussion around this - drilled protected average offensive spear has to be the number one choice for a "fit all" type of army for someone learning the game. Even against the most super troops in the game (the worst conceivable matchups - pikes and armoured impact foot) you're guaranteed to never be down more than one POA in a frontal engagement. And you have the manouverability to exploit a breakthrough (rout the frontal enemy - advance and turn 90 degrees to help out the neighboring BG by smacking into the flank of the opposition). The MF variant is a bit more vulnerable to mounted but still you're at most down one POA (against lightspear cav) and you don't have to worry about terrain to any greater extent. Ergo - thureophoroi (pergamene, hellenistic greek) or any of the myriad of hoplite lists (Later Dynastic Egyptian, Carthaginian, Lydian or the simple choice: Later Hoplite Greeks (post 450 variant with mercenary hoplites and good supporting troops)).

I would strongly recommend against the Condotta for a beginning player, especially if playing in period. It takes a lot of practice to learn how to use those average knights when everybody else has superior Kn and the temptation to pick all those small BGs of (worthless unless you know how to use them) supporting troops is too big for a beginner.

A starting army has to be simple, robust and manouverable. Drilled spears (in BGs of 8 ) has to be the choice, any day.

All in my humble opinion, of course...

An inspired commander is a good idea for a new player. His bonus to move tests will help with misplaced units and his cohesion benefits will recover lots of bad situations.

LambertSimnel wrote: How about something like Later Teutonic Knights or Later Hungarians where you can have a wall of Superior Undrilled Knights plus some drilled knights to stick at the ends of the line for that inevitable "OMG how did those guys
get onto my flank?" moment?

That is one of the charms of the Hungarians, only I start the drilled in rear support and push them to one side or the other as needed.

On the topic of drilled spear, yes, protected are decent troops but armoured are tougher and even more user friendly.

Mike

grahambriggs wrote:An inspired commander is a good idea for a new player. His bonus to move tests will help with misplaced units and his cohesion benefits will recover lots of bad situations.

This is a good point. I didn't think so at first, but now agree with you whole heartedly.

So Offensive Spear preferably armoured but Protected will do. That points to Greeks (or dismounted Crusaders!).

How do you control terrain with a hoplite army? Do you look at Phokian greeks with all their light foot, javelin, light spear or do you take some MF thracians?

Also how good is the Kyrenian list it has the armoured HF Offensive Spear with Heavy Chariots thrown in for good measure.

Irmin wrote:So Offensive Spear preferably armoured but Protected will do. That points to Greeks (or dismounted Crusaders!).

How do you control terrain with a hoplite army? Do you look at Phokian greeks with all their light foot, javelin, light spear or do you take some MF thracians?

Also how good is the Kyrenian list it has the armoured HF Offensive Spear with Heavy Chariots thrown in for good measure.

Well, the first way of 'controlling terrain' is to take an Inspirational General. That way you get a good chance of picking the terrain type.

The second way is 'not very well'. The Greeks don't do well in terrain, but you don't have to go in to control the terrain. You hang around outside, and because you are drilled they can't get out while you beat up the rest of their army .

Ian

Syracusan pre 460BC

FC
2 x TC
2 BGs of 6 Syracusan Hoplites HF, Prot, Ave, Drilled, Off Spear
2 BGs of 6 greek merc Hoplites HF, Prot, Ave, Drilled, Off Spear
1 BG of C4 avalry Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
2 BGs of 6 Slingers LF, Unprot, Ave, Drilled, Sling
1 BG of 8 Spanish mercs, MF, Prot, Ave, Undrilled, Impact foot, Swordsmen
1 BGof 8 Sanites MF, Prot, Ave, Drilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
1 x TF Kyrenean Ally
1 BG of 4 Chariots, HCh, Sup, Undrilled, Light Spear
3 BGs of 6 Hoplites HF, Armoured, Ave, Undrilled, Off Spear.

799pts.

Irmin wrote:Syracusan pre 460BC

The Syracusan list "covers Syracuse's armies from 412 BC". An earlier Syracusan army must be from the classical Greek list (i.e. no good cavalry, no Spanish and no Cyrenaeans), although that says the changeover date is 410 rather than 412.

Best wishes,
Matthew

MCollett wrote:

Irmin wrote:Syracusan pre 460BC

The Syracusan list "covers Syracuse's armies from 412 BC". An earlier Syracusan army must be from the classical Greek list (i.e. no good cavalry, no Spanish and no Cyrenaeans), although that says the changeover date is 410 rather than 412.

Best wishes,
Matthew

My mistake, I saw 733BC and didn't read further.

I guess my next choice would be Kyrenean greek as below

4 TC
3 BGs of 4 Chariots, HCh, Sup, Undrilled, Light Spear
7 BGs of 6 Hoplites HF, Armoured, Ave, Undrilled, Off Spear.
2 BGs of 8 Javelinemen LF, UNprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelin, Light Spear.

798pts in total.

Irmin wrote:
I guess my next choice would be Kyrenean greek as below

4 TC
3 BGs of 4 Chariots, HCh, Sup, Undrilled, Light Spear
7 BGs of 6 Hoplites HF, Armoured, Ave, Undrilled, Off Spear.
2 BGs of 8 Javelinemen LF, UNprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelin, Light Spear.

798pts in total.

I'd skip the IC with the drilled foot in a Dynastic Egyptian army, but Undrilled Off Spearmen + Undrilled HCh + New Player =-> IC I think. This is not just for CTs but also CMTs for movement and avoiding uncontrolled charges, which is harder for Undrilled.

Javs in 8s yes if you expect to fight enemy Skirmishers, 6s or less if they are only for Skirmish utility. Remember these guys shout "cheap kill" for many opponents, but it does make them nice bait.

With TCs to lead them I'd think a couple 8-Spear BGs would be sweet.

These chariots are basically second-grade Knights - not as potent but with all the liabilities. I think that shooty HCh and even skirmishing (Light) Chariots will be easier to use. I think you may well end up pairing these up with Spears to double-team opponents who would prefer to avoid contact with Spears.

Not the easiest army - but certainly not anywhere near the hardest - a lot of tough troops you can point at the enemy.

Mike